WEBVTT

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Can about a project that I've
been doing with a few colleagues

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and we're all from slightly
different disciplines, so that I

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think fits really well with what
you were saying about the

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importance of interdisciplinary
work. So I'm gonna be talking

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about a project we did about the
marketization of refugee camps,

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and we've particularly focused
in on international

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organizations and how they frame
refugees as market actors. All

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will become clear. Hopefully as
we go along.

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But First off, I'm just gonna
put up this slide to introduce

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you to my colleagues who aren't
here with me today. My colleague

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Sophie Mackinder, who is also a
lecturer in social policy, Sara

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de Jong, who is electron
politics.

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And and Hannah Brandkamp, who is
a geographer, I put the the

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University of York, but he's
not. He's in Durham and we're

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all from slightly different
disciplines. Even Sophie and I,

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who are both technically
lecturers in social policy, have

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done very different work. She is
interested in international

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organizations such as the World
Bank and has never before this

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done a project specifically on
migration. But her knowledge of

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how international organisations
work was really important to us.

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I'm just going to give you a
tiny bit of background as to how

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we came to this project and to
this question of refugee camps

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and marketization, and it began
quite a while ago in very late

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2019, when we got small amount
of money from the global

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challenges Research fund. To
address this question of

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markets. And it began with just
reading this report, which you

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can see a picture of here, which
is called Kakuma as a

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marketplace. It was published by
the International Finance

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Corporation.

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In conjunction with the the
UNHCR and we thought they were

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strange bedfellows and became
kind of interested in how that

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kind of a collaboration had come
to be. How are humanitarian

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agency had got into bed with the
financial arm of the World Bank.

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And so we got small amount of
money to do this. And then of

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course COVID happened and our
initial plans which were to do a

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lot of field work in refugee
camps became of course

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impossible. And so we were in a
bit of a waiting game and much

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later on when we were hopeful
that we might be able to travel

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again, the global challenges
Research fund pulled all unspent

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funding and brought it all back
kind of an unprecedented move in

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funding. So we were left with no
money and no research, but we

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wanted to.

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Carry on. We thought this was
important to do so. In the end,

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we without any money decided
that we would interview

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insiders. Elite interviews, if
you like, of people that had

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been heavily involved in this
move towards marketisation from

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within the UNHCR and the
International Finance

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Corporation, and also some
private sector people such as

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the IKEA Foundation, Safari COM,
which is a mobile.

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And provider in Africa. And we
looked at all different levels

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of these organizations, but not
the on the ground level. So we

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were looking at people in
Central UNHCR in the kind of

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private sector evaluation
sections and people who were

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regional heads.

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And in places that have refugee
camps, but we weren't able to

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get on the ground. So that
influences what we did and what

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we found and how we got to talk
to people was we just began with

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the authors of some of these
reports and documents which

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really promoted privatization
and marketization in camps. And

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we just emailed people whose
names were on the documents and

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then snowball, sampled from
there, asking them who they

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thought the key players were in
this kind of.

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Policy context and we found
there were these quite small

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networks of people, very dense
circuits of policymakers who are

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all interacting with each other.
So he 17 interviews, not huge,

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but we seem to cover quite a lot
of the key players in this arena

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because it's a very small world.

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And in the interviews, we
focused on how these different

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organizations understand and
talk about their role in

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marketization and how they frame
refugees when they narrate these

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kinds of developments. So
everything that I'm gonna say

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from now on is about the
findings and how we understood

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and present those findings.

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So first of all, there's like a
surface basic story of how the

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idea of.

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Marketisation, which is a tricky
term to define, but basically to

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in terms of getting private
companies involved in the

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running of refugee camps or an
investing in refugee camps,

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there was a real basic three
phase story of how that came to

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be and it began with private
sector fundraising. So the idea

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that the UNHCR didn't have
enough funding and governments

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were not giving them enough
donations.

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To do what they needed to do,
and with increasing refugee

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crises in inverted commas. So
they started courting money from

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private donors such as the IKEA
Foundation or any private

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company who wanted to give in a
philanthropic way to their

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cause. And even that was quite
controversial. At the time, the

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idea of having anything to do
with private companies seemed

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anathema to the kind of private
to the humanitarian sectors.

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Right duology. But it was very
successful in terms of bridging

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a significant funding gap, not
too long after the success of

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that kind of strategy and they
moved into a phase that they

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described as strategic
philanthropy and this is seeking

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private donations, but they're
allocated to very specific

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projects which are intended to
derisk the refugee camps for

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possible future private sector
investment.

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And I'll give you an example in
a moment of the kinds of things

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that means, and the third phase,
which came quite quickly

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afterwards. So we're talking
about a period of from 2009 Ish,

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when private sector fund raising
becomes a thing to 2018. So only

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really a period of 10 years in
which we move from just doubling

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with the private sector into
something much bigger, which is

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the idea that you can create
full market based economies.

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In refugee camps and again, I'll
talk a bit about what that means

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in a moment.

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But before we get into that, I
wanted to tell you it like a

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story, I guess. And this is how
it was narrated to us by the

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interviewees. We spoke to the
stories they told had very

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familiar, beginning, middle and
end sort of structures to them

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and some familiar familiar
narrative kind of techniques, I

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guess.

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And how people described the
beginnings of this idea was that

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it was like pushing very hard on
a firmly closed door. That's a

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quote from someone who used to
work at the UNHCR.

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Umm, because the idea was that
the humanitarian sector

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generally and the UNHCR
specifically.

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And we're very ideologically
opposed to any kind of work with

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the private sector or taking any
kind of money from the private

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sector. And this didn't go
nowhere list by people who were

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trying to be involved with
humanitarianism. We spoke with

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00:07:51.348 --> 00:07:55.324
the CEO of the IKEA Foundation,
per Guinness. And he said, you

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know, at first, the reaction to
IKEA being involved was how can

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we possibly take money from the
private sector because they're

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the bad guys. And he was very
aware of that.

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00:08:06.250 --> 00:08:10.890
Kind of perception from
traditional humanitarians.

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And so how they framed this, was
that what happens is a very

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small and committed group of
visionary leaders, innovators

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and pioneers pushed against that
ideological resistance in order

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to further this goal of using
the private sector to improve

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refugee camps and deal with this
very real problem of not having

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enough money to support refugee
camps, which in many cases were

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00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:43.870
not temporary solutions.

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But had been around for decades
rather than their original

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00:08:48.115 --> 00:08:52.542
intention to be a reaction to a
specific crisis, and I'm going

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to talk a bit about
depoliticisation in a moment,

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1313-3
00:08:56.055 --> 00:08:59.778
but this is perhaps the first
hint that the kinds of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1313-4
00:08:59.778 --> 00:09:03.713
narratives that people were
telling us really wanted to

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1313-5
00:09:03.713 --> 00:09:07.998
remove the political context
from this idea of privatization

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1313-6
00:09:07.998 --> 00:09:12.425
and marketization. By focusing
on these individual leaders and

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1313-7
00:09:12.425 --> 00:09:16.640
making these ideas seem like a
sudden spark of inspiration.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1326-0
00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:21.921
We can ignore the deeply
political context around any

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1326-1
00:09:21.921 --> 00:09:23.850
kind of capitalistic.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1334-0
00:09:24.300 --> 00:09:27.740
And influence in
humanitarianism.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1397-0
00:09:28.530 --> 00:09:32.864
And they set up this battle, I
guess in the story that they

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1397-1
00:09:32.864 --> 00:09:37.342
told us between these visionary
leaders who wanted to involve

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1397-2
00:09:37.342 --> 00:09:41.748
the private sector and the old
school humanitarians who were

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1397-3
00:09:41.748 --> 00:09:46.370
resisting. And they didn't just
think that they were wrong. The

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1397-4
00:09:46.370 --> 00:09:50.632
people that were resisting or,
you know, misinformed, they

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1397-5
00:09:50.632 --> 00:09:55.038
thought that they were being
dangerously neglectful in their

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1397-6
00:09:55.038 --> 00:09:58.360
duty to protect refugees, 1
interviewee said.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1430-0
00:09:58.450 --> 00:10:02.242
It was like allowing a sick
child to die by not involving

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1430-1
00:10:02.242 --> 00:10:06.491
the private sector so convinced
they were that this was the only

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1430-2
00:10:06.491 --> 00:10:09.628
possible solution to really
difficult financial

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1430-3
00:10:09.628 --> 00:10:11.720
circumstances for humanitarians.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1483-0
00:10:13.420 --> 00:10:17.626
So that's kind of how they set
the the story up the middle of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1483-1
00:10:17.626 --> 00:10:21.492
the story, the call of the story
they told us was really

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1483-2
00:10:21.492 --> 00:10:25.629
framework around some flagship
projects which were they were

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1483-3
00:10:25.629 --> 00:10:29.428
very keen on promoting. These
are not the only kinds of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1483-4
00:10:29.428 --> 00:10:33.769
projects where private companies
are involved in refugee camps,

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1483-5
00:10:33.769 --> 00:10:35.600
but they are the ones that.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1547-0
00:10:35.680 --> 00:10:40.466
And you and HDR in particular
want to promote the most, and

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1547-1
00:10:40.466 --> 00:10:45.252
there are two that I'm gonna
talk briefly about. One is the

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1547-2
00:10:45.252 --> 00:10:49.639
Dollar ADO Camp in Ethiopia,
which was their first big

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1547-3
00:10:49.639 --> 00:10:54.105
partnership with the IKEA
Foundation. And they describe

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1547-4
00:10:54.105 --> 00:10:59.370
this as a project which is about
using private capital to fund an

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1547-5
00:10:59.370 --> 00:11:03.996
experiment. And the aim of that
experiment is to move the

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1547-6
00:11:03.996 --> 00:11:05.830
activity in the dollar.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1615-0
00:11:05.920 --> 00:11:10.086
So camp from something that's
run by a humanitarian agency

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1615-1
00:11:10.086 --> 00:11:14.392
like the UNHCR, to a commercial
enterprise. So they weren't.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1615-2
00:11:14.392 --> 00:11:18.417
They were starting off small.
They were basically giving

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1615-3
00:11:18.417 --> 00:11:23.006
funding for to start some small
agricultural cooperatives to see

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1615-4
00:11:23.006 --> 00:11:27.665
if refugees in these camps could
become economically self reliant

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1615-5
00:11:27.665 --> 00:11:31.619
by having some startup funding
to start an agricultural

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1615-6
00:11:31.619 --> 00:11:35.925
business. So it starts small
scale, but they're ultimate aim

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1615-7
00:11:35.925 --> 00:11:36.490
as they.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1638-0
00:11:36.610 --> 00:11:40.462
Described to us in the
interviews was to eventually

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1638-1
00:11:40.462 --> 00:11:44.610
remove the need for any
humanitarian assistance in that

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1638-2
00:11:44.610 --> 00:11:44.980
camp.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1706-0
00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:49.613
And the other huge kind of
flagship project that formed a

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1706-1
00:11:49.613 --> 00:11:52.887
lot of the core of our
interviews was a partnership

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1706-2
00:11:52.887 --> 00:11:56.351
with the International Finance
Corporation. That's the

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1706-3
00:11:56.351 --> 00:12:00.255
partnership that kicked off our
interest in this topic in the

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1706-4
00:12:00.255 --> 00:12:03.971
1st place and that's in Kakuma
camp in Kenya. And this was

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1706-5
00:12:03.971 --> 00:12:07.561
something quite different.
Again, this was an attempt to

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1706-6
00:12:07.561 --> 00:12:11.339
ignite a fully fledged market in
that camp. So having banks

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1706-7
00:12:11.339 --> 00:12:15.306
access to loans, lines of credit
and privatized services, even

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1706-8
00:12:15.306 --> 00:12:15.810
down to.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1742-0
00:12:15.990 --> 00:12:21.119
Privatized sanitation privatized
education. So like an enormous

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1742-1
00:12:21.119 --> 00:12:26.168
range of privatization going on
in this very large camp, which

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1742-2
00:12:26.168 --> 00:12:31.137
has been there for decades. And
they produced the this report

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1742-3
00:12:31.137 --> 00:12:33.060
Kakuma as a marketplace.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1793-0
00:12:33.490 --> 00:12:37.599
And and they viewed it as
basically a prospectus that they

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1793-1
00:12:37.599 --> 00:12:42.056
could send into the world in the
hope that private sector firms

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1793-2
00:12:42.056 --> 00:12:46.583
would begin to look at that camp
as a potential market that they

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1793-3
00:12:46.583 --> 00:12:50.692
could invest in. And the report
is very much aimed at that

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1793-4
00:12:50.692 --> 00:12:52.920
rather than a kind of academics.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1849-0
00:12:55.040 --> 00:12:59.487
And the kind of end of their
basic story was that they were

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1849-1
00:12:59.487 --> 00:13:04.231
fully convinced of the power of
marketization, and someone told

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1849-2
00:13:04.231 --> 00:13:08.826
us that the profit is the magic.
The profit is important. The

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1849-3
00:13:08.826 --> 00:13:13.274
private sector companies, and
they want to persuade to come

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1849-4
00:13:13.274 --> 00:13:17.647
into these markets, have to be
able to make money, because

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1849-5
00:13:17.647 --> 00:13:22.242
that's what will make this a
sustainable intervention. And we

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1849-6
00:13:22.242 --> 00:13:24.910
have a quote here from Raouf
Mazou.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1865-0
00:13:25.050 --> 00:13:28.362
Currently, the assistant High
Commissioner for the UNHCR, but

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1865-1
00:13:28.362 --> 00:13:31.460
for a long time he was the kind
of regional Commissioner.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1955-0
00:13:31.730 --> 00:13:35.567
And for the area that Kakuma
camp is in in Kenya, so he was

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1955-1
00:13:35.567 --> 00:13:39.660
very intimately acquainted with
that region. And with that camp

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1955-2
00:13:39.660 --> 00:13:43.688
and had been one of the driving
forces behind this cucumber as

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1955-3
00:13:43.688 --> 00:13:47.781
the marketplace report. And he
said, so you actually have to go

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1955-4
00:13:47.781 --> 00:13:51.362
to the private sector and say,
do you realize there are

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1955-5
00:13:51.362 --> 00:13:55.135
opportunities there? You have to
convince them to come and

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1955-6
00:13:55.135 --> 00:13:59.100
convince them to come and do
business. You're not asking them

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1955-7
00:13:59.100 --> 00:14:02.937
to do any philanthropy. You're
asking them to come and make

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1955-8
00:14:02.937 --> 00:14:03.320
money.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1963-0
00:14:03.610 --> 00:14:06.790
So we've moved quite a long way
from.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1995-0
00:14:07.580 --> 00:14:11.770
Just asking for donations from
private money to the idea that

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1995-1
00:14:11.770 --> 00:14:15.756
private the private sector
should be able to make money in

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/1995-2
00:14:15.756 --> 00:14:19.270
refugee camps as being
fundamental to this mission.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2012-0
00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:24.986
And so that's the kind of story
they tell and what we know

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2012-1
00:14:24.986 --> 00:14:26.590
noticed, I guess is that.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2089-0
00:14:27.670 --> 00:14:31.457
There's a lot of talk about
these various projects. There's

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2089-1
00:14:31.457 --> 00:14:35.497
also very little evidence that
they work. So we've read all the

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2089-2
00:14:35.497 --> 00:14:39.157
reports and evaluations from
their flagship projects. And

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2089-3
00:14:39.157 --> 00:14:42.944
despite their obvious kind of
attempts to sugarcoat some of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2089-4
00:14:42.944 --> 00:14:46.921
their findings, most of the time
it's you. They can't hide. It

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2089-5
00:14:46.921 --> 00:14:50.581
didn't really have any of the
impacts that they wanted to

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2089-6
00:14:50.581 --> 00:14:53.800
whatever kind of efforts they
were making towards.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2123-0
00:14:55.270 --> 00:14:59.425
Privatization. Marketization. It
was still being heavily

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2123-1
00:14:59.425 --> 00:15:03.799
subsidized by humanitarian
money, so essentially funnelling

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2123-2
00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:08.245
humanitarian funds into private
sector firms for experiments

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2123-3
00:15:08.245 --> 00:15:12.108
that may or may not have
positive impact on refugees

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2123-4
00:15:12.108 --> 00:15:12.910
themselves.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2210-0
00:15:13.520 --> 00:15:17.082
And of course, they weren't
particularly clear about what

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2210-1
00:15:17.082 --> 00:15:20.705
success might even look like in
terms of marketization and

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2210-2
00:15:20.705 --> 00:15:24.145
privatization. All they could
say in terms of what they

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2210-3
00:15:24.145 --> 00:15:27.952
thought success would be would
be to have more private sector

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2210-4
00:15:27.952 --> 00:15:31.760
involvement. But why? Or what
kind of impact that should have

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2210-5
00:15:31.760 --> 00:15:35.629
was unclear in reports that we
read and in the interviews that

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2210-6
00:15:35.629 --> 00:15:39.252
we did, and lots of people we
spoke to said, actually, the

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2210-7
00:15:39.252 --> 00:15:43.182
reality is very different to the
rhetoric around privatization.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2210-8
00:15:43.182 --> 00:15:45.270
There isn't much of it
happening.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2227-0
00:15:45.490 --> 00:15:49.815
So we have these big UM projects
which are highly publicized by

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2227-1
00:15:49.815 --> 00:15:52.180
all involved, but they're
they're.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2240-0
00:15:53.220 --> 00:15:58.012
2-3 or four projects where the
vast majority of refugee camps

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2240-1
00:15:58.012 --> 00:15:58.630
are not.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2287-0
00:15:59.410 --> 00:16:02.528
Not being privatised,
marketization is not happening

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2287-1
00:16:02.528 --> 00:16:06.174
in them, and it's still very
early days or more rhetoric than

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2287-2
00:16:06.174 --> 00:16:09.644
reality. As some people said to
us. And of course, lots of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2287-3
00:16:09.644 --> 00:16:13.409
people who were heavily involved
in this, and they're also very

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2287-4
00:16:13.409 --> 00:16:14.820
strong proponents of it.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2369-0
00:16:15.590 --> 00:16:19.560
Don't actually know what they
mean by marketization, and so

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2369-1
00:16:19.560 --> 00:16:23.663
it's become this kind of the
market as an idea, as a solution

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2369-2
00:16:23.663 --> 00:16:27.766
has become a kind of floating
signifier, it can attach itself

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2369-3
00:16:27.766 --> 00:16:31.405
to anything that anyone wants it
to, and no particular

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2369-4
00:16:31.405 --> 00:16:35.508
organization has been able to
pin down what they mean by this

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2369-5
00:16:35.508 --> 00:16:39.346
as a strategy. But what they
have managed to achieve is a

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2369-6
00:16:39.346 --> 00:16:43.514
very strong discursive alliance
between these key humanitarian

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2369-7
00:16:43.514 --> 00:16:47.352
organisations, the global
financial institutions like the

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2369-8
00:16:47.352 --> 00:16:48.080
World Bank.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2416-0
00:16:48.230 --> 00:16:51.859
Fund their key private sector
partners. So while there's

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2416-1
00:16:51.859 --> 00:16:55.487
little on the ground movement,
something significant has

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2416-2
00:16:55.487 --> 00:16:59.306
happened in that the idea of
humanitarian marketization has

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2416-3
00:16:59.306 --> 00:17:03.126
become very embedded in the
discourse and made its way into

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2416-4
00:17:03.126 --> 00:17:06.882
kind of the strategies. The 10
year 20 year strategies for

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2416-5
00:17:06.882 --> 00:17:08.600
humanitarian organisations.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2482-0
00:17:09.510 --> 00:17:13.041
And you can recognize if in
interviews in the way that

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2482-1
00:17:13.041 --> 00:17:16.444
people talk about this, that
there's this remarkable

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2482-2
00:17:16.444 --> 00:17:20.360
harmonization of how people
speak. So people are coming from

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2482-3
00:17:20.360 --> 00:17:24.212
very different backgrounds,
people from humanitarian sector

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2482-4
00:17:24.212 --> 00:17:28.128
people, from the private sector
are speaking in very similar

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2482-5
00:17:28.128 --> 00:17:31.980
terms and using almost identical
phrases. And that's partly

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2482-6
00:17:31.980 --> 00:17:35.897
because they're part of this
very dense network of actors, I

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2482-7
00:17:35.897 --> 00:17:39.620
think, and partly because
they're engaged consciously on.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2549-0
00:17:39.860 --> 00:17:43.235
No, in creating a whole new
discourse about refugee camps

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2549-1
00:17:43.235 --> 00:17:46.552
and about what refugees should
be and how they should be

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2549-2
00:17:46.552 --> 00:17:49.985
framed, and some people were
quite explicit about that and

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2549-3
00:17:49.985 --> 00:17:53.302
said that part of the work
they're doing in making these

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2549-4
00:17:53.302 --> 00:17:56.502
connections and networks is
learning to speak the same

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2549-5
00:17:56.502 --> 00:17:59.819
language and a recognition that
they have to create this

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2549-6
00:17:59.819 --> 00:18:03.543
language around this new idea in
order to make it viable and to

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2549-7
00:18:03.543 --> 00:18:04.590
sell it to others.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2582-0
00:18:06.310 --> 00:18:09.293
And I think that's important.
I've just got a quote, a kind of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2582-1
00:18:09.293 --> 00:18:12.371
academic quote here on why, even
though we don't see a lot of on

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2582-2
00:18:12.371 --> 00:18:14.880
the ground movement, the
creation of this narrative.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2631-0
00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:19.407
And is really important in that
it can ultimately turn into a

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2631-1
00:18:19.407 --> 00:18:23.478
dominant way of looking at
reality if it's kind of a cogent

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2631-2
00:18:23.478 --> 00:18:27.345
enough, if it's structured
enough, and if it's the right

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2631-3
00:18:27.345 --> 00:18:31.416
people pulling together to say
these kinds of things to use

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2631-4
00:18:31.416 --> 00:18:34.740
these kinds of words and to
create the sense of.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2657-0
00:18:35.140 --> 00:18:38.725
Umm, something happening and
movement. A big change in the

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2657-1
00:18:38.725 --> 00:18:42.553
way that we do things. Then it
they can make it so almost just

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2657-2
00:18:42.553 --> 00:18:44.680
with the words that they're
using.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2685-0
00:18:45.330 --> 00:18:49.061
And we looked a bit at that and
the way in which that's very

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2685-1
00:18:49.061 --> 00:18:52.609
removed from the political
reality. It's the kind of very

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2685-2
00:18:52.609 --> 00:18:54.260
deep politicized discourse.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2696-0
00:18:54.770 --> 00:18:59.021
Umm. And they were explicitly
involved in making this new

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2696-1
00:18:59.021 --> 00:18:59.680
episteme.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2762-0
00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:04.466
Some people, like Ralph Mazu,
said to us they are actively

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2762-1
00:19:04.466 --> 00:19:08.680
engaged in trying to change the
mindset around refugees. Part of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2762-2
00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:12.440
their mission isn't just to
create, in a practical sense,

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2762-3
00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:16.395
privatized refugee camps or
marketised refugee camps, but to

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2762-4
00:19:16.395 --> 00:19:20.415
get the world to see refugees as
economic actors, not just as

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2762-5
00:19:20.415 --> 00:19:24.435
vulnerable people. That's part
of the mission explicitly, and

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2762-6
00:19:24.435 --> 00:19:28.260
they're doing this by creating
these thick networks, these

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2762-7
00:19:28.260 --> 00:19:30.270
epistemic communities, who are.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2793-0
00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:34.547
Engaged in creating a whole
plethora of reports and there

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2793-1
00:19:34.547 --> 00:19:39.124
are for each little project or
not so little in some cases. But

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2793-2
00:19:39.124 --> 00:19:43.485
for each project like the ones
I've just discussed with you,

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2793-3
00:19:43.485 --> 00:19:44.200
there are.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2844-0
00:19:45.220 --> 00:19:48.753
Mountains of different reports,
all under slightly different

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2844-1
00:19:48.753 --> 00:19:52.228
guises, so they're all talking
about the same thing, but it

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2844-2
00:19:52.228 --> 00:19:56.051
creates this idea that there's a
critical mass of evidence around

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2844-3
00:19:56.051 --> 00:19:59.584
this marketization, when there
isn't, because a lot of these

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2844-4
00:19:59.584 --> 00:20:03.117
reports are talking about the
same thing, but looks slightly

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2844-5
00:20:03.117 --> 00:20:06.650
different and be the evidence is
very scant when it's there.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2929-0
00:20:08.600 --> 00:20:12.491
And they've engaged a number of
academics, particularly the

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2929-1
00:20:12.491 --> 00:20:16.446
University of Oxford Refugee
Study Centre, has done a lot of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2929-2
00:20:16.446 --> 00:20:20.466
evaluations of these kinds of
projects. So there's a sense of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2929-3
00:20:20.466 --> 00:20:24.745
legitimizing going on. There's a
whole a lot of activity which is

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2929-4
00:20:24.745 --> 00:20:28.636
about legitimizing this kind of
activity through the use of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2929-5
00:20:28.636 --> 00:20:32.721
various experts, either experts,
because they're academics and

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2929-6
00:20:32.721 --> 00:20:36.870
they're able to evaluate or the
expertise of private companies.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2929-7
00:20:36.870 --> 00:20:40.502
So there's a lot of talk about
the importance of having

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2929-8
00:20:40.502 --> 00:20:41.020
private.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2942-0
00:20:41.110 --> 00:20:44.618
Investment because they have
technical expertise in areas

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/2942-1
00:20:44.618 --> 00:20:46.130
that humanitarians don't.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3010-0
00:20:46.760 --> 00:20:50.416
So basically, these communities
are building up and they're

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3010-1
00:20:50.416 --> 00:20:53.705
engaged in this recursive
recognition, creating these

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3010-2
00:20:53.705 --> 00:20:57.300
cycles of affirmation for each
other's projects, masses of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3010-3
00:20:57.300 --> 00:21:01.260
reports and documentation which
are publicised to give the sense

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3010-4
00:21:01.260 --> 00:21:05.098
of something that's happening in
his legitimate and of course,

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3010-5
00:21:05.098 --> 00:21:08.814
her key part of avoiding the
politics of the situation is to

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3010-6
00:21:08.814 --> 00:21:12.530
frame this not as an ideological
debate. For those people we

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3010-7
00:21:12.530 --> 00:21:16.003
spoke to, that's the done
debate. The ideological debate

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3010-8
00:21:16.003 --> 00:21:16.490
is over.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3045-0
00:21:16.730 --> 00:21:20.718
It's now about the pragmatics,
about it's about the technical

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3045-1
00:21:20.718 --> 00:21:24.641
expertise and the logistics of
getting this done rather than

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3045-2
00:21:24.641 --> 00:21:28.564
any discussion of whether it
should be done or what it might

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3045-3
00:21:28.564 --> 00:21:29.400
end up doing.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3135-0
00:21:30.730 --> 00:21:34.920
So what we wanted to do then, I
guess once we uncovered the ways

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3135-1
00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:39.110
in which this had been deeper at
sized was to try and repair it,

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3135-2
00:21:39.110 --> 00:21:42.977
size the narrative to analyse
the ways in which they talked

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3135-3
00:21:42.977 --> 00:21:46.973
about refugees and think about
it more politically because of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3135-4
00:21:46.973 --> 00:21:50.841
course policy ideas can't be
free from ideology. And whilst

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3135-5
00:21:50.841 --> 00:21:54.643
they did their best to narrate
their stories of individual

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3135-6
00:21:54.643 --> 00:21:58.382
leadership and of technical
expertise and of evidence, we

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3135-7
00:21:58.382 --> 00:22:01.540
wanted to look up some of what
was underpinning.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3200-0
00:22:01.620 --> 00:22:05.872
That story, and how it might
reframe refugees, intentionally

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3200-1
00:22:05.872 --> 00:22:10.332
or otherwise, and we wanted to
think about it in the context of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3200-2
00:22:10.332 --> 00:22:14.584
capitalism, I guess. And the
later stages of capitalism that

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3200-3
00:22:14.584 --> 00:22:18.975
we're in and that we know where
currently in this struggle for

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3200-4
00:22:18.975 --> 00:22:22.878
what remains and using Rosa
Luxemburg's words from many

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3200-5
00:22:22.878 --> 00:22:27.478
years ago, but still relevant, I
struggled for what remains still

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3200-6
00:22:27.478 --> 00:22:31.590
open of the non capitalist
environment. So this idea that.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3251-0
00:22:31.950 --> 00:22:36.271
And capital accumulation is
always going to be seeking new

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3251-1
00:22:36.271 --> 00:22:40.739
frontiers, and that potentially
refugee camps are one of the

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3251-2
00:22:40.739 --> 00:22:45.499
last frontiers of capitalism, a
place and a population of people

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3251-3
00:22:45.499 --> 00:22:49.893
have not yet been capitalized on
or made money from and are

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3251-4
00:22:49.893 --> 00:22:54.068
indeed kind of somehow existing
outside of normal market

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3251-5
00:22:54.068 --> 00:22:54.800
relations.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3327-0
00:22:55.240 --> 00:23:00.100
And until be Carol has talked
about deep marketization in the

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3327-1
00:23:00.100 --> 00:23:05.037
development context, mostly as
kind of similar idea of finding

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3327-2
00:23:05.037 --> 00:23:09.740
the last frontiers of capitalism
and also how this phase of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3327-3
00:23:09.740 --> 00:23:14.207
marketization very much goes
through and goes around the

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3327-4
00:23:14.207 --> 00:23:18.440
state. Whereas previously I
guess drives towards more

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3327-5
00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:22.986
neoliberal capitalism were
acting on the state, trying to

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3327-6
00:23:22.986 --> 00:23:27.375
persuade nation states into
certain kinds of neoliberal

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3327-7
00:23:27.375 --> 00:23:28.080
policies.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3393-0
00:23:28.390 --> 00:23:32.526
This latest phase is outside of
those boundaries of the nation

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3393-1
00:23:32.526 --> 00:23:35.874
state and looking for
opportunities that don't, in

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3393-2
00:23:35.874 --> 00:23:40.010
which they don't have to Co opt
and persuade nation States and

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3393-3
00:23:40.010 --> 00:23:43.948
of course, refugee camps, which
are kind of sort of somehow

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3393-4
00:23:43.948 --> 00:23:47.690
weirdly outside of in a kind of
limbo state, physically,

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3393-5
00:23:47.690 --> 00:23:52.023
geographically, within a nation,
but often without the same rules

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3393-6
00:23:52.023 --> 00:23:55.765
and regulations. There are
perfect site for that kind of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3393-7
00:23:55.765 --> 00:23:57.340
capitalist accumulation.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3541-0
00:23:58.500 --> 00:24:02.463
And so we looked a bit of the
discourses that were kind of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3541-1
00:24:02.463 --> 00:24:06.695
allowing this to happen and to
seem kind of half reasonable to

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3541-2
00:24:06.695 --> 00:24:10.725
humanitarians. And one of the
discourses was self-reliance.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3541-3
00:24:10.725 --> 00:24:14.554
This came up hugely in our
interviews. People repeatedly

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3541-4
00:24:14.554 --> 00:24:18.786
talked about how privatizing and
marketing refugee camps would

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3541-5
00:24:18.786 --> 00:24:22.749
ultimately allow refugees to
become self-reliant. And that

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3541-6
00:24:22.749 --> 00:24:26.040
narrative is a new to
humanitarianism. It's been

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3541-7
00:24:26.040 --> 00:24:29.734
around, obviously, in the
development world for a long

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3541-8
00:24:29.734 --> 00:24:30.070
time.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3610-0
00:24:30.120 --> 00:24:33.467
The idea of promoting
self-reliance and of course,

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3610-1
00:24:33.467 --> 00:24:37.340
it's a fundamental part of a
neoliberal discourse. So this

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3610-2
00:24:37.340 --> 00:24:41.409
was kind of a nice conceptual
consensus and easy discourse to

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3610-3
00:24:41.409 --> 00:24:45.740
which both the humanitarian side
and the more private sector side

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3610-4
00:24:45.740 --> 00:24:49.875
could both kind of agree on and
begin to build their discourse

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3610-5
00:24:49.875 --> 00:24:53.682
from, and they were linking it
with the idea of regaining

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3610-6
00:24:53.682 --> 00:24:57.816
dignity through work, a familiar
trope and self worth, through

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3610-7
00:24:57.816 --> 00:25:00.310
being able to work or own a
business.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3645-0
00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:05.373
Or indeed consume their choice
of goods. And this is a really

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3645-1
00:25:05.373 --> 00:25:10.426
seductive idea, I think in the
context of refugees, cause in a

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3645-2
00:25:10.426 --> 00:25:14.998
world currently where they're
you routinely dehumanized,

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3645-3
00:25:14.998 --> 00:25:16.040
criminalized.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3703-0
00:25:16.420 --> 00:25:20.664
UM, giving reframing them as
something positive or something

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3703-1
00:25:20.664 --> 00:25:25.255
that doesn't have to be burdened
them to a nation state, but that

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3703-2
00:25:25.255 --> 00:25:28.802
they can be useful and
resourceful. And it has the

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3703-3
00:25:28.802 --> 00:25:33.185
feeling of rightness to it in a
moral sense. It's a much nicer

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3703-4
00:25:33.185 --> 00:25:37.289
way of looking at it than
looking at them as being surplus

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3703-5
00:25:37.289 --> 00:25:40.280
to kind of the requirements of
capitalism.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3784-0
00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:44.571
But this is purely an economic
form of self-reliance, that

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3784-1
00:25:44.571 --> 00:25:48.283
they're discourse is built on
which they believe all people

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3784-2
00:25:48.283 --> 00:25:52.181
aspire to, and they talked about
refugees who are currently in

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3784-3
00:25:52.181 --> 00:25:55.955
camps where there is none of
this privatization and economic

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3784-4
00:25:55.955 --> 00:25:59.791
activity as just sitting there.
So there was the kind of idea

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3784-5
00:25:59.791 --> 00:26:03.688
that if you're not engaged in
the market, either as a consumer

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3784-6
00:26:03.688 --> 00:26:07.091
or as a worker or as an
entrepreneur, then you're just

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3784-7
00:26:07.091 --> 00:26:10.370
not doing anything useful and
you're sitting around.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3843-0
00:26:11.220 --> 00:26:15.815
And I hope, I think was that if
you can reframe refugees

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3843-1
00:26:15.815 --> 00:26:21.136
refugees as a potential resource
that would persuade host nations

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3843-2
00:26:21.136 --> 00:26:26.134
such as Kenya to integrate the
large numbers of refugees that

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3843-3
00:26:26.134 --> 00:26:31.052
they have encamped into their
nation stay and of course into

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3843-4
00:26:31.052 --> 00:26:36.050
the global capitalist system.
And so there is something of a.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3858-0
00:26:36.120 --> 00:26:40.071
Have kind of positive underlying
motive to some of this

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3858-1
00:26:40.071 --> 00:26:42.610
narrative, and some of these
ideas.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3923-0
00:26:43.770 --> 00:26:47.871
Is to, you know, get legal and
social rights ultimately for

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3923-1
00:26:47.871 --> 00:26:51.835
refugees, but it has this kind
of consequence of making a

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3923-2
00:26:51.835 --> 00:26:55.594
binary distinction between
refugees who just sit there

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3923-3
00:26:55.594 --> 00:26:59.626
because they're not economically
active and those who have

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3923-4
00:26:59.626 --> 00:27:04.137
dignity if they are. And it also
ignores some of the realities of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3923-5
00:27:04.137 --> 00:27:08.511
the legal and social context in
the most refugees can't work in

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3923-6
00:27:08.511 --> 00:27:11.860
these camps because of their
legal restrictions.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3936-0
00:27:12.770 --> 00:27:15.320
And you might not be surprised
to know that, sorry.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3933-0
00:27:13.410 --> 00:27:14.360
Just then.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3954-0
00:27:15.380 --> 00:27:19.487
Just, uh, just uh meeting Kelly.
Uh. 5 minutes to go to the

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3942-0
00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:17.370
And just.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3958-0
00:27:19.080 --> 00:27:21.740
5 minutes? Yes, perfect. Thank
you.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/3954-1
00:27:19.487 --> 00:27:20.240
discussion.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4028-0
00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:25.900
And so another kind of framing
around this was the naturalness

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4028-1
00:27:25.900 --> 00:27:29.327
of the market. You might not be
surprised to see that they

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4028-2
00:27:29.327 --> 00:27:32.987
discussed the market as being
something completely normal. But

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4028-3
00:27:32.987 --> 00:27:36.472
to get back to a normal life,
that refugee should be in the

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4028-4
00:27:36.472 --> 00:27:39.900
market. And they said this
really explicitly, if we create

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4028-5
00:27:39.900 --> 00:27:43.269
a market system, people will
have the feeling of having a

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4028-6
00:27:43.269 --> 00:27:46.638
normal life. And this was
supplemented by lots of kind of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4028-7
00:27:46.638 --> 00:27:50.356
nature rish metaphors. So they
were talked about harvesting the

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4028-8
00:27:50.356 --> 00:27:51.750
potential of the market.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4109-0
00:27:52.010 --> 00:27:55.801
Markets that could flower within
refugee camps. And there was

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4109-1
00:27:55.801 --> 00:27:59.835
this kind of idea that there was
already a market there and there

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4109-2
00:27:59.835 --> 00:28:03.320
is there's lots of informal
economic activity in refugee

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4109-3
00:28:03.320 --> 00:28:07.110
camps. And so they drew on that
as though to say that markets

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4109-4
00:28:07.110 --> 00:28:11.023
are organic and normal part of
life, economic activities normal

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4109-5
00:28:11.023 --> 00:28:14.813
and organic. But it also needs
to be tamed and formalized. We

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4109-6
00:28:14.813 --> 00:28:18.726
can't let it run wild by itself.
And so maybe the final kind of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4109-7
00:28:18.726 --> 00:28:22.210
place that we got to through all
this was the idea that.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4111-0
00:28:22.760 --> 00:28:23.540
Essentially.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4200-0
00:28:24.280 --> 00:28:28.561
What the framing is is not only
showed to refugees, be economic

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4200-1
00:28:28.561 --> 00:28:32.909
actors, and framed in that way,
but they can become human again.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4200-2
00:28:32.909 --> 00:28:36.922
They can become normal and like
others through the power of

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4200-3
00:28:36.922 --> 00:28:40.534
markets, if only they can be
involved economically in

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4200-4
00:28:40.534 --> 00:28:44.681
markets. And we think this in
some of our writing into Sylvia

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4200-5
00:28:44.681 --> 00:28:49.028
Winter's work and the idea that
why bourgeois man is the default

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4200-6
00:28:49.028 --> 00:28:53.109
idea of what humanity is and
nothing else quite cuts it, and

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4200-7
00:28:53.109 --> 00:28:55.650
white man and their capitalist
ideal.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4238-0
00:28:55.890 --> 00:28:59.840
Is the representative the ideal
**** economicus and we're

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4238-1
00:28:59.840 --> 00:29:03.926
measuring refugees worth, I
guess, and what they should and

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4238-2
00:29:03.926 --> 00:29:08.420
ought to be, and why we ought to
value and care against this kind

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4238-3
00:29:08.420 --> 00:29:12.370
of quite racialized idea of what
a normal way of life is.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4350-0
00:29:13.550 --> 00:29:17.554
So to conclude, I guess the idea
of marketization has become very

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4350-1
00:29:17.554 --> 00:29:21.315
deeply embedded in international
organizations, and I say the

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4350-2
00:29:21.315 --> 00:29:25.197
idea, rather than the practice,
because the practice is not yet

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4350-3
00:29:25.197 --> 00:29:29.018
that embedded. But that's what
we're looking at happening over

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4350-4
00:29:29.018 --> 00:29:32.779
the coming decades. And it's
been driven by not evidence, but

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4350-5
00:29:32.779 --> 00:29:35.933
by this discursive alliance
between these epistemic

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4350-6
00:29:35.933 --> 00:29:39.815
communities that have grown up
around this idea and and they've

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4350-7
00:29:39.815 --> 00:29:43.212
really taken the politics out of
this and strongly deep

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4350-8
00:29:43.212 --> 00:29:43.940
politicized.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4417-0
00:29:44.080 --> 00:29:47.900
And these idea and they give an
aura that there's so much

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4417-1
00:29:47.900 --> 00:29:51.917
emerging evidence and success,
but there isn't. There's just

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4417-2
00:29:51.917 --> 00:29:56.001
the discourse and the proponents
of these kinds of ideas have

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4417-3
00:29:56.001 --> 00:29:59.820
positioned themselves as
visionary leaders and positioned

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4417-4
00:29:59.820 --> 00:30:03.904
the others they work with as
visionaries fighting against and

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4417-5
00:30:03.904 --> 00:30:08.119
now dated, unsustainable, very
socialist humanitarian ideology,

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4417-6
00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:11.807
which can't survive in the
modern circumstances. And as

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4417-7
00:30:11.807 --> 00:30:14.770
I've just got to, I guess this
narrative is.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4466-0
00:30:15.190 --> 00:30:19.504
Has consequences, not just in
terms of practice but in terms

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4466-1
00:30:19.504 --> 00:30:23.535
of how we understand what
refugees and how we view them,

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4466-2
00:30:23.535 --> 00:30:27.991
not just as reframing them as
economic actors, whether that be

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4466-3
00:30:27.991 --> 00:30:32.446
consumers or entrepreneurs, but
as only being able to be fully

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4466-4
00:30:32.446 --> 00:30:36.760
human through their contribution
and activity in the market.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4469-0
00:30:38.380 --> 00:30:39.090
Thank you.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4492-0
00:30:42.100 --> 00:30:46.734
Thank you very much, Kelly. I'm
going to end the recording now.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4492-1
00:30:46.734 --> 00:30:47.820
Four questions.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4503-0
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:52.237
And I figure out how to shop.
Stop sharing. I don't know how

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4503-1
00:30:52.237 --> 00:30:52.410
to.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4523-0
00:30:54.340 --> 00:30:57.837
Is there not a stop sharing
button out? If you're on the web

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4523-1
00:30:57.837 --> 00:30:59.900
browser, I believe it's at the
top.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4529-0
00:31:00.550 --> 00:31:02.240
I've got it. Thank you.

23c49830-7197-418b-9df9-540464cf62fa/4532-0
00:31:03.260 --> 00:31:04.170
Thank you.