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<title>Elgin Marbles</title></titleStmt>

<publicationStmt><distributor>BASE and Oxford Text Archive</distributor>


<availability><p>The British Academic Spoken English (BASE) corpus was developed at the

Universities of Warwick and Reading, under the directorship of Hilary Nesi

(Centre for English Language Teacher Education, Warwick) and Paul Thompson

(Department of Applied Linguistics, Reading), with funding from BALEAP,

EURALEX, the British Academy and the Arts and Humanities Research Board. The

original recordings are held at the Universities of Warwick and Reading, and

at the Oxford Text Archive and may be consulted by bona fide researchers

upon written application to any of the holding bodies.

The BASE corpus is freely available to researchers who agree to the

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<p>1. The recordings and transcriptions should not be modified in any


<p>2. The recordings and transcriptions should be used for research purposes

only; they should not be reproduced in teaching materials</p>

<p>3. The recordings and transcriptions should not be reproduced in full for

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passages of text (up to 200 running words from any given speech event)</p>

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Researchers should acknowledge their use of the corpus using the following

form of words:

The recordings and transcriptions used in this study come from the British

Academic Spoken English (BASE) corpus, which was developed at the

Universities of Warwick and Reading under the directorship of Hilary Nesi

(Warwick) and Paul Thompson (Reading). Corpus development was assisted by

funding from the Universities of Warwick and Reading, BALEAP, EURALEX, the

British Academy and the Arts and Humanities Research Board. </p></availability>




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<langUsage><language id="en">English</language>



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<item n="speechevent">Lecture</item>

<item n="acaddept">Classics</item>

<item n="acaddiv">ah</item>

<item n="partlevel">UG2</item>

<item n="module">Uses and abuses of classical art</item>





<u who="nm0005"> on a double-sided sheet <pause dur="0.5"/> and once again i haven't put a summary on this one but what i have put # <pause dur="0.8"/> # as with the pictures before <pause dur="0.4"/> is extracts <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> in this case ancient documents which i'll explain briefly towards the end <pause dur="1.6"/> we've got a little bit of time i think to look at those but you can # read them in your own time as well <pause dur="0.8"/> the other sheet <pause dur="0.2"/> i will also talk about at the end it's it gives you information what's required for the seminars <pause dur="0.3"/> which are planned for next Tuesday <pause dur="1.1"/> now <pause dur="0.2"/> # there is nothing on Monday <pause dur="0.3"/> because it's the bank holiday <pause dur="0.3"/> but the seminar should go ahead as normal on Tuesday <pause dur="0.8"/> # i've got # a sort of <pause dur="0.2"/> a grid with times for you to sign up in the different groups <pause dur="0.4"/> all being well you'll be able to stay in the same groups you were # in before with <gap reason="name" extent="2 words"/> <pause dur="0.6"/> but <pause dur="0.2"/> # if there's a problem if there's a timetable clash you can move to # another group <pause dur="0.7"/> # and if there are any problems with that you can consult me <pause dur="0.2"/> think it's best if i just put that up on the notice

board afterwards <pause dur="0.3"/> and you can go and sign up <pause dur="1.9"/> # <pause dur="1.3"/> on the back of # <pause dur="0.4"/> that # page with the information about the seminar <pause dur="0.5"/> is # a couple of extracts from poems by Lord Byron <pause dur="0.9"/> which you can enjoy in your own time <pause dur="2.0"/> but the verses just # at the bottom of that page from the a poem called the Curse of Minerva <pause dur="0.5"/> are a suitable introduction to this phase in the story of the Acropolis <pause dur="0.2"/> and the reception of the Parthenon <pause dur="0.9"/> <reading>daughter of Jove in Britain's injured name <pause dur="0.3"/> a true born Briton may the deed disclaim <pause dur="0.7"/> frown not on England <pause dur="0.5"/> England owns him not <pause dur="0.3"/> Athena no <pause dur="0.3"/> thy plunderer was a Scot</reading> <pause dur="1.1"/> now those are not Byron's # best verses <pause dur="1.2"/> but they are a suitable start <pause dur="0.4"/> because the Scottish plunderer of course is Lord Elgin <pause dur="0.9"/> and <pause dur="0.2"/> # the plunder was the sculptures of the Parthenon <pause dur="0.4"/> and this is the controversy that still rages today that you'll be looking at in some detail <pause dur="0.2"/> you'll be looking at the contemporary controversy <pause dur="0.4"/> in next week's seminars <pause dur="1.3"/> the sorts of arguments that you'll be examining

looking at <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> # the <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> contemporary # <pause dur="0.2"/> polemics <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="1.1"/> in most cases they have their origins right here <pause dur="0.2"/> at the start of the nineteenth century <pause dur="2.6"/> # <pause dur="3.0"/> we left the Parthenon # last time in sixteen-eighty-seven <pause dur="0.5"/> with the huge hole in the middle of it if you remember <pause dur="0.4"/> in sixteen-eighty-seven shortly after the sculptures had been drawn by Jacques Carrey <pause dur="0.6"/> # the Parthenon was destroyed in the Venetian bombardment of the Acropolis <pause dur="0.5"/> the Acropolis was a fortress <pause dur="0.2"/> ammunition was stored on it <pause dur="0.3"/> it was bombarded <pause dur="0.3"/> and the Parthenon which miraculously had <pause dur="0.3"/> remained intact up until that stage because <pause dur="0.2"/> it had <pause dur="0.4"/> # constantly been used <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> really <pause dur="1.2"/> became the sort of ruin that we recognize today <pause dur="1.5"/> between then between the end of the seventeenth century and eighteen-hundred <pause dur="0.5"/> there had been several attempts by westerners western Europeans <pause dur="0.4"/> to remove little bits and pieces of the sculpture from the site <pause dur="0.3"/> # and from the building itself <pause dur="0.8"/> and <pause dur="1.0"/> # we think of the Parthenon sculptures as being mainly in the British

Museum but there are little bits and pieces <pause dur="0.4"/> <trunc>i</trunc> in Paris and Copenhagen <pause dur="0.6"/> # in Vienna <pause dur="0.2"/> # and Rome and elsewhere <pause dur="1.7"/> nevertheless the sculptures of the Parthenon had remained largely intact <pause dur="0.5"/> # up until <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> the <pause dur="0.2"/> start of the nineteenth century <pause dur="2.4"/> in spite of this <pause dur="0.5"/> # i've said before in the two introductory lectures on the reception of classical art and # of architecture <pause dur="0.6"/> # i said that the eighteenth century <pause dur="0.3"/> # saw an increased understanding of the difference between Roman and Greek art <pause dur="1.2"/> and an increased interest in imitating <pause dur="0.2"/> specifically <pause dur="0.2"/> classical Greek models rather than just <pause dur="0.4"/> generally <pause dur="0.2"/> the sculpture or architecture of the ancients <pause dur="1.6"/> # so <pause dur="0.4"/> # though the sculptures of the Parthenon # remained largely intact in the eighteenth century <pause dur="0.5"/> they were becoming increasingly well known <pause dur="0.9"/> people <pause dur="0.4"/> to # <pause dur="0.4"/> a greater extent were aware that this was a real site that existed in contemporary Greece <pause dur="0.2"/> rather than just a famous temple mentioned <pause dur="0.3"/> in ancient literary sources <pause dur="2.2"/> now in seventeen-ninety-nine <pause dur="0.6"/> # Lord

Elgin <pause dur="0.7"/> was appointed as <pause dur="0.2"/> # ambassador to the court of the Ottoman Empire <pause dur="2.1"/> and he took this opportunity of his <pause dur="0.4"/> dispatch to # <pause dur="0.4"/> Constantinople to Istanbul <pause dur="1.7"/> to <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="1.4"/> obtain permission <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> for his agents to do some limited work on the site of the Acropolis <pause dur="2.0"/> he was allowed in # a document called a firman <pause dur="0.3"/> which is a was an Ottoman <pause dur="0.3"/> a sort of permit to do # to granting certain favours <pause dur="0.6"/> # to outsiders <pause dur="0.2"/> he was granted this permission to do <pause dur="0.9"/> # limited <pause dur="0.9"/> excavation in a sense not excavation <pause dur="0.3"/> # # in in the modern sense <pause dur="0.5"/> # but retrieve some of the sculptures from the site <pause dur="0.3"/> and to draw and copy <pause dur="0.3"/> and study <pause dur="0.4"/> # the sculptures of the Parthenon <pause dur="1.7"/> now today there's controversy over what exactly that permission involved <pause dur="0.4"/> just what sort of legal right <pause dur="0.3"/> even in the terms of <pause dur="0.4"/> # the Ottoman Empire <pause dur="0.3"/> Lord Elgin had <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> to do what he did <pause dur="1.7"/> but <pause dur="0.6"/> from any point of view there's no doubt that he <pause dur="0.2"/> # interpreted <pause dur="0.4"/> # his permission <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> broadly <pause dur="1.6"/> and before he'd even set foot in Athens which he did briefly in eighteen-o-two <pause dur="1.1"/> his men had begun the

process <pause dur="0.3"/> of removing everything that wasn't # <pause dur="0.2"/> attached to the building <pause dur="0.4"/> and # <pause dur="0.2"/> nearly everything that was <pause dur="1.7"/> in removing these sculptures from the temple <pause dur="0.6"/> the sculptures which were an integral part of the building <pause dur="0.4"/> not just decorations stuck on the outside <pause dur="1.0"/> Lord Elgin's men caused considerable damage to the building <pause dur="2.9"/> in his absence his agents shipped these sculptures <pause dur="0.4"/><vocal desc="laugh" iterated="n"/><pause dur="2.5"/> in his absence this # agents shipped these sculptures back to # back to England <pause dur="0.6"/> and they included well things you've seen before <pause dur="0.4"/><kinesic desc="puts on transparency" iterated="n"/> that should be <pause dur="0.6"/> # quite familiar <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> fifty slabs representing fifty separate slabs <pause dur="0.3"/> # representing the Parthenon frieze <pause dur="1.8"/> # <pause dur="1.0"/> that's one of the individual slabs here # <pause dur="3.4"/> # and then a little drawing as you saw before reconstructing the sort of view from the ground as you look at the frieze <pause dur="0.3"/> in situ up inside the colonnade of the Parthenon <pause dur="1.9"/><kinesic desc="changes transparency" iterated="y" dur="5"/> the sides of the frieze # he <pause dur="0.2"/> retrieved fifteen of the metopes the <pause dur="0.7"/> high relief sculptures from the outside of the temple <pause dur="0.9"/><vocal desc="clears throat" iterated="n"/><pause dur="0.5"/> most of the the best preserved ones

representing the battle between the Lapiths and the Centaurs <pause dur="2.7"/> and you removed <pause dur="0.2"/> # what was left of the <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="1.0"/> pedimental sculptures from the <kinesic desc="changes transparency" iterated="y" dur="5"/> gables at each end <pause dur="0.5"/> # of the temple <pause dur="0.9"/> # <pause dur="2.0"/> these are <pause dur="0.7"/> what's left of the # <pause dur="1.1"/> of the east pediment in the British Museum <pause dur="0.7"/> representing the birth of Athene <pause dur="1.1"/> these had already been damaged in the course of the eighteenth century by previous attempts to remove bits and pieces <pause dur="0.4"/> # individual <pause dur="0.2"/> figures from the pedimental sculptures had been removed and there'd been <pause dur="0.3"/> a Venetian attempt to remove quite a lot so they'd been damaged <pause dur="0.3"/> before Lord Elgin came along <pause dur="0.6"/> and just to give you some idea of their <kinesic desc="changes transparency" iterated="y" dur="5"/> state before the Venetian bombardment in sixteen-eighteen-seven <pause dur="0.7"/> these are # Jacques Carrey's drawings <pause dur="0.4"/> # of <pause dur="0.2"/> # the # <pause dur="0.2"/> the west pediment <pause dur="0.2"/> representing the struggle between <pause dur="0.2"/> Athene and Poseidon <pause dur="2.6"/> so most of this material brought back to the British Museum <pause dur="0.3"/> # and that's where it is now of course how many of you <pause dur="0.6"/> how many of you have seen the Elgin Marbles in the British Museum <pause dur="1.6"/>

nearly everybody <pause dur="0.9"/> the rest of you probably have without <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>remembering anything about it <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.4"/> it's not far away so next time you're in London take <pause dur="0.4"/> take # <pause dur="0.8"/> take the opportunity to go and look at them and also think about the way they're displayed in the British Museum <pause dur="0.6"/> which is quite interesting what it implies <pause dur="0.3"/> about the nineteenth century <pause dur="0.3"/> view <pause dur="0.3"/> # of what these sculptures are and why they're important <pause dur="1.4"/> you'll also notice in the British Museum <pause dur="0.5"/> just <pause dur="0.2"/> to one in one of the smaller galleries off to one side <pause dur="0.3"/> partly in response to the contemporary <pause dur="0.3"/> controversy <pause dur="0.2"/> the Greek demands for the return of the Elgin Marbles <pause dur="0.5"/> # there are new displays which put much more emphasis on the original context of the sculptures <pause dur="0.3"/> and what sort of role they had on the temple itself <pause dur="4.8"/> # Elgin also removed other bits and pieces from the Acropolis # including <pause dur="0.2"/> you know one of the caryatids one of the architectural <pause dur="0.4"/> # female figures from the Erectheum <pause dur="0.6"/> which if you remember <pause dur="0.2"/> on the plan was next to <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> next to the

Parthenon <pause dur="1.5"/> well there's no doubt that Elgin was acting from personal <pause dur="0.2"/> # from motives of personal gain he wanted these sculptures <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> as <pause dur="0.4"/> as many other aristocrats in that period wanted classical sculptures <pause dur="0.2"/> as the suitable cultivated adornments for his home <pause dur="0.9"/> these sculptures were exceptional <pause dur="0.5"/> they were <pause dur="0.4"/> beyond the means of most aristocratic collectors in this period <pause dur="0.4"/> but it's the same kind of thing he wanted them <pause dur="0.4"/> # as <pause dur="0.3"/> # the suitable adornments of his # <pause dur="0.5"/> <trunc>s</trunc> specifically of the property he was building in Scotland <pause dur="3.4"/> it may or may not be true what he later claimed that he was bringing these things back and his drawings and plaster casts as well <pause dur="0.4"/> for the <trunc>s</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> for the good of the arts and crafts of Britain <pause dur="0.5"/> that these things were going to be a sort of inspiring example <pause dur="0.3"/> to nineteenth century <pause dur="0.3"/> # British designers and artists <pause dur="0.6"/> # i suppose it's really fair to say that those two motives were rather blurred in Elgin's own mind <pause dur="0.9"/> # as well as some of his supporters <pause dur="3.8"/>

now it's <pause dur="0.2"/> very easy especially in light of the contemporary debate and our attitudes to <pause dur="0.4"/> # the plundering <pause dur="0.3"/> of cultural heritage <pause dur="0.4"/> to condemn Lord Elgin <pause dur="2.3"/> # there's a book which you will look at you should look at especially if you're answering <pause dur="0.3"/> # if you're writing an essay on <pause dur="0.2"/> # the Elgin controversy <pause dur="0.5"/> which is <kinesic desc="holds up book" iterated="n"/> this book by Christopher Hitchens <pause dur="0.3"/> which is on your general bibliography <pause dur="0.5"/> # and and today's handout as well <pause dur="0.3"/> The Elgin Marbles Should They Be Returned To Greece <pause dur="1.5"/> if you see a book with a title like that you know that it's not he's not genuinely asking that <pause dur="0.3"/> question <pause dur="0.2"/> and that what he really means is <pause dur="0.2"/> the Elgin Marbles why they should be returned to Greece <pause dur="0.3"/> it's a very polemical book it's a political tract <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> it's <pause dur="0.6"/> factually wrong in many <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>places <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.4"/> it's <pause dur="0.2"/> # it twists the # historical evidence <pause dur="0.5"/> # it's very <pause dur="0.2"/> # rhetorical <pause dur="0.3"/> last year i devoted a whole lecture to analysing the rhetoric <pause dur="0.6"/> # which he uses to put his point across <pause dur="0.4"/> not time to do that this year <pause dur="0.2"/> but it would be good if you <pause dur="0.3"/> # have a look at that <pause dur="1.6"/>

anyway # Hitchens is # obviously very hostile to Elgin <pause dur="1.2"/> and he sees him as a sort of grasping hypocrite <pause dur="1.1"/> # totally unscrupulous <pause dur="1.3"/> and he finds it deeply ironic that Lord Elgin and his contemporaries <pause dur="0.2"/> his associates <pause dur="0.3"/> could talk about # Napoleon's <pause dur="0.4"/> plundering of Italy at that time <pause dur="0.4"/> Napoleon <pause dur="0.2"/> taking <pause dur="0.3"/> paintings and sculptures from Italy back to France <pause dur="0.8"/> # and and even Elgin and and his # friends could compare their own <pause dur="0.5"/> # depredations with those of <pause dur="0.2"/> # Napoleon <pause dur="0.4"/> and yet they didn't see anything wrong in what they were doing <pause dur="1.4"/> Napoleon's actions were <pause dur="0.2"/> self-evidently wrong he was <pause dur="0.2"/> plundering these cultural treasures of Italy <pause dur="1.2"/> there was nothing wrong with what Elgin was doing <pause dur="1.4"/> and i think to understand that apparent # double <pause dur="0.9"/> double standard <pause dur="0.9"/> # <pause dur="1.4"/> we have to remember that the # <pause dur="0.2"/> the <pause dur="2.8"/> there's a kind of # difference <pause dur="0.7"/> in the way that # western Europe and its cultural treasures would have been viewed <pause dur="0.9"/> <trunc>a</trunc> <trunc>a</trunc> and and the way in which the the <trunc>r</trunc> # ancient ruins of of Greece would have

been viewed just at that period <pause dur="0.7"/> we've a very clear idea of cultural treasures of cultural heritage <pause dur="0.6"/> but in that period <pause dur="0.3"/> there was a difference in <trunc>i</trunc> in people's minds between the plundering of the galleries of the established states of western Europe <pause dur="0.6"/> and the recovering <pause dur="0.2"/> of outdoor ruins <pause dur="0.2"/> from a small fortress settlement <pause dur="0.3"/> on the very edge of the Ottoman Empire <pause dur="0.3"/> which is what Athens was <pause dur="0.4"/> # in that period <pause dur="2.7"/> having said that <pause dur="0.3"/> there is # an inconsistency a deep tension <pause dur="0.4"/> in the way <pause dur="0.3"/> in which Elgin and his like-minded contemporaries were thinking <pause dur="2.0"/> they <pause dur="0.2"/> clearly recognized the documents show that they clearly recognized <pause dur="1.0"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> Elgin's enemies recognized that <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> <trunc>hi</trunc> the way that he went about recovering these sculptures was clumsy <pause dur="0.5"/> and self-interested <pause dur="0.7"/> and it resulted in the demolition of a well preserved and <pause dur="0.2"/> and well known classical monument <pause dur="0.9"/> Elgin was much criticized in his own time as we'll see <pause dur="2.7"/> on the other hand <pause dur="1.0"/> you could easily argue that he was just doing on a grander scale <pause dur="0.4"/> what <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="1.0"/>

other aristocrats from Britain and and western European countries <pause dur="0.2"/> were doing <pause dur="0.3"/> in the the <pause dur="0.2"/> late eighteenth and early nineteenth century <pause dur="1.7"/> and the British Museum <pause dur="0.4"/> is full of <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> monuments that <pause dur="0.2"/> were brought back from Turkey and Greece <pause dur="0.3"/> and other countries <pause dur="0.4"/> in a time when really <trunc>the</trunc> there didn't seem to be anything <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> wrong with <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="1.8"/> in a sense recovering these <pause dur="0.3"/> outdoor remains for civilization <pause dur="2.2"/> so in that sort of tension between the criticism of Elgin <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> the the # <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="1.0"/> # near acceptability of what he was doing <pause dur="0.5"/> you can see that <pause dur="0.9"/> really <trunc>att</trunc> # contemporary attitudes are <pause dur="0.2"/> wavering <pause dur="0.3"/> between those two extremes <pause dur="0.9"/> we're on the # the edge <pause dur="0.5"/> of acceptability <pause dur="0.2"/> and unacceptability <pause dur="2.1"/> it didn't take long for that balance to tip one way <pause dur="1.0"/> so we do very quickly have <pause dur="0.4"/> outspoken <pause dur="0.7"/> romantic <pause dur="0.3"/> nationalist attacks on Elgin <pause dur="0.2"/> from people like Byron and Byron is the most outspoken of all <pause dur="1.0"/> who have already developed a clear idea of Greece <pause dur="0.4"/> as a distinct modern nation <pause dur="0.3"/> with its own special cultural

heritage <pause dur="2.1"/> now we should find that attitude <pause dur="0.8"/> rather surprising <pause dur="0.9"/> in this period <pause dur="0.2"/> remember that Greece doesn't exist at this time <pause dur="0.7"/> the state of Greece doesn't exist and had never existed <pause dur="0.4"/> at the start of the nineteenth century <pause dur="2.0"/> it had existed in a sense as a province of the Roman Empire <pause dur="1.9"/> but it's <pause dur="0.2"/> a few years after this in the eighteen-twenties that # Greece won its independence and became <pause dur="0.3"/> a nation state <pause dur="1.8"/> so in a sense Byron's # attitudes his idea of the <pause dur="0.3"/> Greek nation <pause dur="0.2"/> and its # <pause dur="0.2"/> spiritual property <pause dur="0.4"/> <trunc>i</trunc> is a a rather novel one <pause dur="0.9"/> today <pause dur="0.6"/> those sorts of sentiments are # perfectly familiar to us <pause dur="4.4"/> still we should bear in mind the ambiguities of the time <pause dur="0.6"/> and these are particularly clear if you <pause dur="0.2"/> # if for example when you start to look at the letters <pause dur="0.6"/> exchanged between <pause dur="0.4"/> # the the painter called # Lusieri <pause dur="0.3"/> who was <trunc>or</trunc> # Elgin's # agent that's L-U-S-<pause dur="0.3"/>I-E-R-I <pause dur="1.4"/> he was in charge of Elgin's operations on the ground in Athens <pause dur="0.6"/> # if you look at his letters to his patron <pause dur="1.7"/> # <pause dur="2.4"/> it's quite interesting it's almost a

sort of matter of fact almost an innocent <pause dur="0.2"/> attitude <pause dur="0.3"/> to what they were doing <pause dur="0.7"/> which in retrospact <pause dur="0.2"/> # in retrospect appears absolutely outrageous <pause dur="0.3"/> and # Christopher Hitchens represents Lusieri <pause dur="0.4"/> # and his colleagues as being <pause dur="0.2"/> <trunc>s</trunc> # sort of <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> greedy psychopaths <pause dur="0.4"/> # there's one extract from a letter in eighteen-o-one which Hitchens makes much of <pause dur="1.2"/> about the # # # in eighteen-o-one <pause dur="0.3"/> the they Elgin's people were just beginning to remove some of the larger sculptures from the Parthenon <pause dur="0.6"/> and Lusieri writes to him and says <pause dur="1.4"/> <reading>i hope that no further difficulties will be raised <pause dur="0.2"/> as to continuing the diggings at the Temple of Minerva</reading> <pause dur="0.6"/> # the Temple of Athene that is the Parthenon <pause dur="0.7"/> <reading>and i shall be able to get possession of all the fragments i find <pause dur="1.8"/> Mr Hunt</reading> another of Elgin's # employees <pause dur="0.3"/> <reading>Mr Hunt wrote to Your <trunc>excellen</trunc> Excellency on my behalf <pause dur="0.3"/> to send a dozen marble saws of different sizes <pause dur="0.2"/> to Athens <pause dur="0.2"/> as quickly as possible <pause dur="0.9"/> i should require three or four twenty feet in length <pause dur="0.4"/> to saw a great bas-relief <pause dur="0.6"/>

that we could not transport unless we reduce its height</reading> <pause dur="0.9"/> he's actually talking about the centre of the east frieze of the Parthenon <pause dur="0.4"/> it's such a lovely idea that they had this practical problem <trunc>we</trunc> <pause dur="0.3"/> oh take ten centimetres off the top and then it'll work <pause dur="0.8"/> but it is <trunc>al</trunc> an almost innocent attitude he doesn't seem at all aware <pause dur="0.4"/> that there would be any criticism of what he's doing <pause dur="0.5"/> he has a task to perform <pause dur="0.3"/> and he's doing it <pause dur="0.4"/> in <pause dur="0.2"/> a a a matter of fact way <pause dur="2.6"/> well the work went on in Elgin's absence for several years <pause dur="1.1"/> and in fact Lusieri was there still <pause dur="0.7"/> oh # <pause dur="0.3"/> fifteen years after the removal of sculptures ended <pause dur="0.2"/> still drawing things and and doing bits and pieces of work for Elgin <pause dur="3.7"/> returning from his post in the Ottoman Empire <pause dur="0.5"/> # Elgin's fortunes <pause dur="0.5"/> started <pause dur="0.3"/> to take a turn for the worse <pause dur="0.7"/> his life fell to pieces in fact <pause dur="0.5"/> he was kidnapped <pause dur="0.2"/> he was taken hostage by the French on his way home <pause dur="0.9"/> and held for i think it was three years <pause dur="0.5"/> as a as a hostage <pause dur="1.6"/> # <pause dur="1.6"/> this <pause dur="0.2"/> # is the period of the

Napoleonic Wars Napoleon's France is at war with Britain <pause dur="1.8"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> while he's # detained and his wife his wife left him ran off with his next-door neighbour in Scotland <pause dur="1.2"/> and his fortunes were dissolving <pause dur="1.1"/> and he'd spent something it's a little bit unclear but maybe something like seventy or eighty-thousand pounds <pause dur="0.5"/> on his operations in the Acropolis <pause dur="0.7"/> you imagine what that is in modern terms we're talking about many millions of pounds i suspect <pause dur="1.2"/> he'd spent a fortune <pause dur="0.9"/> and he really returned # to Britain <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.8"/> maybe penniless isn't the right word <pause dur="0.4"/> # for somebody who had properties in London and Scotland but he <pause dur="0.3"/> # <trunc>h</trunc> <trunc>h</trunc> his fortune <pause dur="0.2"/> # had been lost <pause dur="1.8"/> so by eighteen-ten he's abandoned his original plan of <pause dur="0.4"/> keeping the sculptures <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> displaying them in his # <pause dur="0.2"/> home in Scotland <pause dur="0.3"/> he's abandoned his fallback plan of # <pause dur="0.2"/> # displaying them at in his house in London and allowing paying visitors to view them <pause dur="0.5"/> not going to make enough money from the entrance fees <pause dur="0.7"/> so in eighteen-ten he starts

negotiations <pause dur="0.3"/> to sell these sculptures to the British Museum <pause dur="0.7"/> that is to say to the British state <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.8"/> to give them to the British Museum for safe keeping <pause dur="2.2"/> he wanted something like seventy or eighty-thousand pounds to cover his expenses <pause dur="0.5"/> course he was aiming high <pause dur="0.3"/> in the expectation <pause dur="0.3"/> that he wouldn't get that much <pause dur="0.6"/> but # he he was offered <pause dur="0.8"/> well initially thirty-thousand pounds and then finally thirty-five-thousand pounds <pause dur="2.8"/>

maybe half what he'd spent acquiring these things in the first place <pause dur="1.8"/> and there was much opposition <pause dur="0.2"/> to the state's purchase of these sculptures at a time of war <pause dur="1.3"/> but finally after a series # of discussions in the House of Commons through eighteen-fifteen and eighteen-sixteen <pause dur="0.8"/> # the # Parliament agreed in eighteen-sixteen <pause dur="0.2"/> to to pay <pause dur="0.3"/> # Elgin <pause dur="0.4"/> # for the marbles and to deposit them in the British Museum <pause dur="0.4"/> and that's where they have been ever since <pause dur="2.0"/> once again <pause dur="0.4"/> these debates these parliamentary debates <pause dur="0.4"/> which are represented <pause dur="0.3"/> # lot of the documents are in Hitchens' book but i've put extracts in your handout <pause dur="0.6"/> these <pause dur="0.8"/> arguments are really the basis of the # contemporary controversy and you'll see the same sorts of arguments <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> in <pause dur="0.5"/> you know the second decade of the nineteenth century <pause dur="0.3"/> as you'll find once you start to look in the internet <pause dur="0.4"/> for <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> # arguments in the nineteen-nineties <pause dur="3.4"/> well <pause dur="2.3"/> despite this consistency <pause dur="0.2"/> in the nature of the debate and the nature of the

controversy over two centuries <pause dur="0.8"/> there was another controversy in Elgin's own time which may appear more surprising to us <pause dur="1.5"/> and that is the <pause dur="0.8"/> contemporary aesthetic attitudes <pause dur="0.2"/> to the Elgin marbles <pause dur="0.3"/> the way in which people responded to them as ancient art <pause dur="0.5"/> at the beginning of the nineteenth century <pause dur="4.3"/> individually <pause dur="0.4"/> some Greek sculptures had been admired appreciated since the seventeenth century or before <pause dur="1.3"/> certainly Roman copies # of <pause dur="0.2"/> Greek sculptures or <pause dur="0.3"/> versions of the <pause dur="0.3"/> # recreations of the style of Greek sculpture <pause dur="0.5"/> # had been admired and collected for a long time <pause dur="1.3"/> but really <pause dur="0.3"/> there had been very little <pause dur="0.3"/> public demonstration of what Greek what real <pause dur="0.2"/> classical Greek sculptures looked like <pause dur="1.5"/> people had an idea of what classical sculpture looked like <pause dur="0.3"/> which was especially built on on later Hellenistic and Roman <pause dur="0.3"/> # works <pause dur="2.2"/> and this is a period when as i've said before Greece was <pause dur="0.2"/> just becoming more accessible to western Europe <pause dur="0.9"/> with the products <pause dur="0.3"/> and # well the the # relics of Greece were just

becoming <pause dur="0.3"/> # better known <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> to collectors in the west <pause dur="1.9"/> we looked before at the # realization that Greek vases came from Athens and not from Italy <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> from about the middle of the eighteenth century <pause dur="2.0"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> as a result of this people weren't quite ready for what they <trunc>f</trunc> <pause dur="0.3"/> saw in the Elgin marbles <pause dur="0.5"/> and while # <trunc>w</trunc> some people had their breath taken away by these sculptures <pause dur="0.6"/> and thought they were the most wonderful works of art <pause dur="0.2"/> that had been seen <pause dur="0.3"/> in western Europe <pause dur="1.0"/> but others were <pause dur="0.4"/> rather shocked and surprised by what they found <pause dur="0.7"/> # they saw sculptures which were <pause dur="0.9"/> very realistic in some respects that paid <pause dur="0.2"/> close attention to details of anantomy <pause dur="0.8"/> including the veins and individual muscles in the body <pause dur="1.2"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> less idealized in that sense than <pause dur="0.3"/> some <pause dur="0.2"/> of the freestanding sculptures that had been known up until then <pause dur="1.4"/> they saw <pause dur="0.2"/> sculptures that had hints of facial expression <pause dur="0.7"/> figures expressing emotion rather than just having blank classical faces <pause dur="0.9"/> and bodies engaged in lively action <pause dur="0.3"/> twisting around <pause dur="0.6"/> #

dynamic figures very unlike the still <pause dur="0.2"/> impassive <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> Greco-Roman sculptures that had been so much admired in the eighteenth century <pause dur="3.5"/> and there was one particular <pause dur="0.5"/> critic <pause dur="0.3"/> who <pause dur="0.2"/> dealt a serious blow to Elgin's <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> his <pause dur="0.3"/> claim for for money and and # his his attempt to <pause dur="0.4"/> # get the importance of the sculptures recognized in Britain <pause dur="0.5"/> that was a figure <pause dur="0.3"/> called Richard Payne Knight <pause dur="2.0"/> now Richard Payne Knight <pause dur="1.3"/> nowadays you'd call him a classicist he's <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> quite well known for translating # some obscene Latin poems <pause dur="0.4"/> # called the # the Priapic Songs <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> but better known as a connoisseur of art he's a leading figure <pause dur="0.4"/> in an organization called the Society of Dilettante <pause dur="1.3"/> the Society of Dilettante still exists <pause dur="0.4"/> if any of you <pause dur="0.4"/> want some money to go on holiday to Greece you should look out on the noticeboard in the corridor and they sometimes send <pause dur="0.4"/> out the advertisements <pause dur="0.4"/> for the # you know they give awards for <trunc>pe</trunc> # undergraduates to go and study sculpture in Greece <pause dur="1.5"/> # the Society of Dilettante

was a society a sort of gentlemen's society <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> # of connoisseurs <pause dur="0.2"/> scholars of ancient art <pause dur="0.7"/> # and <pause dur="1.3"/> it doesn't <pause dur="0.2"/> quite have the sort of amateur associations <pause dur="0.7"/> that <pause dur="1.2"/> the <trunc>n</trunc> the the name might suggest today <pause dur="0.4"/> they sponsored a lot of very serious <pause dur="0.3"/> # scientific study <pause dur="0.3"/> of ancient sculptures <pause dur="0.7"/> so Richard Payne Knight was a leading figure in this organization <pause dur="0.3"/> and a kind of expert witness gave evidence to Parliament <pause dur="0.5"/> on the # value of the sculptures <pause dur="0.6"/> and he had a devastating judgement of them <pause dur="1.5"/> he said <pause dur="0.7"/> that far from being works of the greatest sculptors of the high classical period <pause dur="0.4"/> in the fifth century B-C <pause dur="1.0"/> these sculptures that Elgin had brought back <pause dur="0.9"/> had been made in the reign of the Emperor Hadrian <pause dur="0.6"/> in the first half of the second century A-D <pause dur="2.6"/> now Christopher Hitchens <pause dur="0.4"/> talking about this argument <pause dur="0.3"/> thinks it's absolutely ridiculous he calls Richard Payne Knight a buffoon <pause dur="1.1"/> and says that this suggestion <pause dur="0.3"/> that the sculptures are Hadrianic is absolutely ridiculous <pause dur="1.0"/> and taking <pause dur="0.5"/> taking their cue <pause dur="0.3"/> #

from Hitchens <pause dur="0.8"/> everybody who wrote an essay on this subject last year <pause dur="0.3"/> said <pause dur="0.5"/> # Richard Payne Knight thought the sculptures were Hadrianic # wasn't that ridiculous <pause dur="2.3"/> and i'm sure that some of you will try and do the same thing this year as well <pause dur="0.3"/> and i felt very sorry for Payne Knight <pause dur="0.5"/> when i was reading the essays last year <pause dur="0.9"/> because <pause dur="2.7"/> even today <pause dur="0.2"/> i bet if i i i could show you a picture <pause dur="0.4"/> of a fifth century B-C sculpture <pause dur="0.4"/> and a Hadrianic sculpture <pause dur="0.6"/> # and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them <pause dur="0.6"/> i bet i could choose examples <pause dur="0.4"/> that would <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.9"/> you you'd find difficult to tell apart <pause dur="0.7"/> there are differences but they're subtle differences <pause dur="0.4"/> and even today generally with the dating of ancient sculpture <pause dur="0.3"/> we sometimes have <pause dur="0.4"/> great difficulty <pause dur="1.2"/> our judgements tend to be based on style <pause dur="0.8"/> and the age of Hadrian was a period in which <pause dur="0.2"/> classical Greek sculpture was much <pause dur="0.5"/> imitated <pause dur="1.4"/> # so imagine the early nineteenth century imagine a period when people are only just beginning to try and <pause dur="0.3"/> impose <pause dur="0.3"/> some sort

of historical chronological framework <pause dur="0.3"/> on this mass of <pause dur="0.2"/> bits and pieces of diverse sculpture <pause dur="0.6"/> from Greece and Rome <pause dur="0.9"/> how on earth <pause dur="0.3"/> <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/> would you <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/> be able to tell <pause dur="0.3"/> the difference <pause dur="0.2"/> between <pause dur="0.2"/> the <pause dur="0.2"/> fifth century material and Hadrianic material <pause dur="1.7"/> the fact that these things were found on the Parthenon is suggestive i admit <pause dur="0.6"/> but there are other monuments in Greece <pause dur="0.2"/> famous temples <pause dur="0.3"/> which had been restored in Roman <pause dur="0.3"/> in the Roman period and had later sculptures on them <pause dur="0.3"/> so it's not an absurd suggestion <pause dur="0.2"/> at all <pause dur="1.5"/> <trunc>i</trunc> it has to be admitted it wasn't <pause dur="0.2"/> the # opinion of most people in this period <pause dur="2.1"/> but even without Payne Knight's specific controversial judgement <pause dur="0.5"/> there was <pause dur="0.3"/> # on the part of many people <pause dur="0.7"/> # at the start of the nineteenth century <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> a feeling of <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="1.8"/> a bit people felt uncomfortable <pause dur="0.4"/> about the # <pause dur="0.5"/> form <pause dur="0.3"/> of the Elgin marbles <pause dur="0.4"/> # which defied their expectations <pause dur="0.2"/> of classical art <pause dur="0.4"/> in the neoclassical period <pause dur="3.3"/> well the upshot of all this <pause dur="0.3"/> is that <pause dur="1.3"/> there are really two lessons from the material we've

looked at <pause dur="2.3"/> firstly this is a period of flux <pause dur="1.7"/> we've seen that # attitudes were # to the nation <pause dur="0.5"/> and to <pause dur="0.2"/> cultural heritage were changing <pause dur="1.7"/> ideas like those expressed by Byron were just starting to emerge <pause dur="1.5"/> we'll look at that <pause dur="0.3"/> <trunc>m</trunc> more # # in the next lecture <pause dur="0.9"/> but besides that <pause dur="0.4"/> classical studies <pause dur="0.2"/> classical art history classical <pause dur="0.2"/> archaeology <pause dur="1.1"/> are are beginning to take form in <trunc>somethi</trunc> # something <pause dur="0.2"/> like <pause dur="0.2"/> the the the the the form we see them today <pause dur="2.2"/> things that we take for granted ideas and assumptions that we take for granted are just starting <pause dur="0.3"/> to take shape <pause dur="0.4"/> in classical scholarship <pause dur="4.7"/>

the second thing is <pause dur="2.6"/> that <pause dur="0.6"/> if you look at <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> <trunc>h</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> Hitchens' particular objections <pause dur="1.0"/> # to Lord Elgin's action and <trunc>hi</trunc> his argument for the return of the Elgin marbles <pause dur="0.9"/> they are ultimately underpinned <pause dur="0.7"/> by his own <pause dur="0.3"/> personal <pause dur="0.2"/> passion <pause dur="0.5"/> for the what he sees as the sublime artistic achievement <pause dur="0.4"/> represented by the sculptures in the Parthenon <pause dur="5.1"/> because he has that assumption 'cause his argument his political argument depends on it <pause dur="1.1"/> it is unthinkable that the <pause dur="0.2"/> # classic quality he observes in these sculptures <pause dur="0.3"/> might not be instinctively <pause dur="0.3"/> evident to everybody <pause dur="1.7"/> it's out of the question as far as Hitchens is concerned <pause dur="0.2"/> that anyone might have an alternative view of the Elgin marbles <pause dur="0.4"/> and for that reason <pause dur="0.2"/> he has to devote special effort to rubbishing Payne Knight <pause dur="0.6"/> or any other <pause dur="0.3"/> # aesthetic <trunc>criti</trunc> critics <pause dur="0.2"/> of the Elgin marbles <pause dur="0.4"/> # from # Elgin's own period <pause dur="1.5"/> what Hitchens is doing <pause dur="0.3"/> is really <pause dur="0.3"/> # what what many of us are

doing <pause dur="0.2"/> all the time <pause dur="0.3"/> we're looking back on <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> recent history of the reception <pause dur="0.3"/> of the this material <pause dur="0.4"/> # and on the classical past <pause dur="0.9"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> from a position of knowledge <pause dur="0.2"/> and we're secure <pause dur="0.8"/> in <pause dur="0.5"/> our assumptions <pause dur="0.3"/> and our expectations <pause dur="0.7"/> and our prejudices about the classical past and what it <pause dur="0.3"/> what what its significance is today <pause dur="1.3"/> so our # everything we look at in the past <pause dur="0.3"/> is orientated towards our own contemporary standpoint <pause dur="1.4"/> you look at a polemical tract like Hitchens and that becomes particularly clear <pause dur="0.4"/> but i think it's part of what we're all doing <pause dur="3.4"/> another point worth making is <pause dur="0.8"/> in this <pause dur="0.2"/> # particular respect <pause dur="0.6"/> is <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="2.2"/> Hitchens' attitude to the # <pause dur="0.4"/> to the creator of the Parthenon sculptures <pause dur="0.5"/> if you look at the the blurb on the back of his book <pause dur="1.4"/> it begins <pause dur="0.3"/> <reading>the Elgin marbles designed and executed by Phidias to adorn the Parthenon <pause dur="0.2"/> are some of the most beautiful sculptures of Ancient Greece</reading> <pause dur="3.1"/> and that's his first factual mistake <pause dur="0.3"/> that these sculptures were made by Phidias <pause dur="1.8"/> we're told by ancient sources that

Phidias <pause dur="0.6"/> was <pause dur="0.5"/> in some sense responsible for the sculptures of the Parthenon <pause dur="0.9"/> he couldn't have been <pause dur="0.3"/> actively involved in the production of all of them <pause dur="0.6"/> # it's usually thought that he had some sort of role as a supervisor <pause dur="2.5"/> nevertheless we know that Phidias was the most great the the the greatest # most famous # sculpture of the classical <trunc>wor</trunc> # # sculptor of the classical world <pause dur="0.4"/> # Roman sources <pause dur="0.3"/> # always cite him as the example of a classical <pause dur="0.3"/> # sculptor he's a bit like Michelangelo in more recent centuries <trunc>th</trunc> the most famous <pause dur="0.3"/> figure of all <pause dur="0.2"/> in the history of classical art <pause dur="0.5"/> and so Hitchens and <pause dur="0.5"/> many with similar views <pause dur="0.2"/> latch on to that supposed <pause dur="0.4"/> association <pause dur="0.3"/> between Phidias and the Parthenon sculptures <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="1.0"/> to # demonstrate <pause dur="0.5"/> # that # <pause dur="0.5"/> the the these works are # <pause dur="1.3"/> self-evidently <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> the the # # <trunc>s</trunc> sometimes called the crown jewels of Greece <pause dur="0.7"/> something of # <pause dur="0.4"/> # exceptional <pause dur="0.3"/> # importance has cultural heritage not just like anything else that <trunc>w</trunc> may have been <pause dur="0.4"/> # removed from Greece or other countries <pause dur="0.2"/>

but something special <pause dur="0.9"/> # that # deserves <pause dur="0.2"/> # exceptional treatment <pause dur="1.5"/> but do take an opportunity at some stage to look at his arguments and the way he manipulates that sort of <pause dur="0.4"/> # historical material <pause dur="0.5"/> # to serve his own arguments <pause dur="2.0"/> # <pause dur="1.3"/> well <pause dur="0.3"/> i i do before i finish i want to i want to <pause dur="0.2"/> # discuss what you're doing for the seminar but in the last # ten minutes or so before that <pause dur="0.4"/> i wanted to <pause dur="0.4"/> # look a little bit at the extracts you have in your handout <pause dur="1.4"/> and <pause dur="0.4"/> to point out some features of # there's interesting features of the <pause dur="0.3"/> the form the debate was taking <pause dur="0.4"/> # at the time when Elgin was trying to sell <pause dur="0.2"/> these sculptures <pause dur="0.2"/> to the state <pause dur="1.8"/> i'll not read all of this you can <trunc>y</trunc> you should read them in your own time and think about them <pause dur="0.6"/> but there are one or two bits i wanted to # pay <pause dur="0.5"/> particular attention to <pause dur="2.5"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> first of all if you look under A on the first page of your handout <pause dur="4.4"/><event desc="passes handout to observer" iterated="n"/> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="2 secs"/></u><u who="om0006" trans="overlap"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> thanks very much </u><pause dur="1.2"/> <u who="nm0005" trans="pause"> # <pause dur="0.2"/> if you look under A there # <trunc>the</trunc> these are the minutes of the # Parliamentary debate well of the last Parliamentary debate that occurred

in June <pause dur="0.5"/> of eighteen-sixteen <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> trying to decide whether Parliament <pause dur="0.2"/> should # # pay <pause dur="0.4"/> # thirty-five-thousand pounds to Elgin for these sculptures <pause dur="2.0"/> you see right at the beginning <reading>Mr Hammersley</reading> <pause dur="1.3"/> Member of Parliament <reading>Mr Hammersley <pause dur="1.0"/> he said he should oppose the resolution <pause dur="0.2"/> on the ground of the dishonesty of the transaction by which the collection was obtained <pause dur="1.4"/> as to the value of the statues <pause dur="0.3"/> he was inclined to go as far as the honourable mover</reading> <pause dur="0.8"/> person <pause dur="0.3"/> proposing the motion <pause dur="0.2"/> that # Elgin should be paid <pause dur="1.1"/> <reading>but he was not so enamoured of those headless ladies as to forget another lady <pause dur="0.2"/> which was justice</reading> <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> standards of <pause dur="0.2"/> of <pause dur="0.3"/> rhetoric in Parliament haven't improved <pause dur="1.0"/> # <pause dur="1.9"/> so that's # <pause dur="0.9"/> would <pause dur="0.2"/> seem the beginning of the sort of argument that's used today that # # <trunc>e</trunc> Elgin # <pause dur="0.4"/> was acting # <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> dishonestly <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="1.3"/> effectively bribing the officials in Athens <pause dur="0.4"/> # and exploiting his position <pause dur="1.3"/> but then the next bit is particularly <pause dur="0.3"/> # interesting to us <pause dur="1.0"/> <reading>if a restitution of these marbles was demanded from this country <pause dur="0.8"/>

was it supposed that our title to them could be supported on the vague words of the firman <pause dur="0.6"/> which only gave authority to remove some small pieces of stone <pause dur="1.3"/> it was well known <trunc>th</trunc> that the empress Catharine</reading> <pause dur="0.6"/> the empress Catharine of Russia <pause dur="0.4"/> <reading>had entertained the idea of establishing the Archduke Constantine in Greece</reading> <pause dur="0.8"/> setting up a monarchy in Greece <pause dur="1.3"/> <reading>if the project of that extraordinary woman should ever be accomplished and Greece ranked among independent nations <pause dur="0.3"/> with what feelings would she contemplate the people who had stripped from this celebrated temple <pause dur="0.3"/> of its noblest ornaments</reading> <pause dur="1.7"/> now that <pause dur="0.6"/> too seems like a very modern argument <pause dur="1.4"/> the idea that <pause dur="0.2"/> you know that # Greece might <pause dur="0.3"/> one day call for these things to be returned <pause dur="0.5"/> # and # that # <pause dur="1.0"/> # there would be ill feeling because Britain had had robbed that nation <pause dur="0.3"/> of its most treasured cultural <pause dur="0.6"/> possessions <pause dur="0.3"/> so superficially it looks like a modern argument <pause dur="0.5"/> but then think again about the terms in which it's presented <pause dur="1.3"/> it is not <pause dur="0.4"/> he

doesn't say <pause dur="1.0"/> maybe in # <pause dur="0.6"/> five years time <pause dur="0.4"/> # there will be a Greek revolution <pause dur="0.3"/> and Greece will become a nation state <pause dur="0.3"/> and the Greek people <pause dur="0.2"/> will want their <trunc>cer</trunc> # their cultural heritage back as a symbol of their newly founded nation <pause dur="0.6"/> # and then <pause dur="0.3"/> we should # be <pause dur="0.4"/> # feel guilty that we have this material <pause dur="0.3"/> he doesn't say that <pause dur="0.4"/> he assumes that Greece becoming a nation <pause dur="0.6"/> depends <pause dur="0.3"/> on the

establishment of a monarchy <pause dur="0.2"/> from outside <pause dur="1.2"/> which effectively is what happened <pause dur="2.1"/> so it's not quite <pause dur="0.5"/> even a <trunc>n</trunc> <pause dur="0.3"/> nationalist conception of Greece that's represented by Byron <pause dur="0.8"/> there's still this <pause dur="0.2"/> deeply ingrained assumption <pause dur="0.3"/> that <pause dur="0.2"/> at the moment Greece isn't like the states of western Europe <pause dur="0.9"/> but if it did become like that <pause dur="0.2"/> it would be dependent on it having # # <pause dur="0.4"/> a monarchy <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> # established from outside <pause dur="1.0"/> nothing about the Greek people or their <pause dur="0.3"/> nationalist sentiments <pause dur="2.4"/> well Mr Hammersley goes on to # talk about the # <pause dur="0.7"/> you know the question of whether the Turks the Ottoman Turks occupying Athens <pause dur="0.3"/> # value these pieces whether

it was true <pause dur="0.4"/> # that they didn't care about them <pause dur="0.4"/> so that Elgin was justified in removing <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> things that literally have no value <pause dur="1.4"/> # <pause dur="1.6"/> he # <pause dur="1.9"/> goes on to suggest that # <pause dur="0.5"/> Elgin's <trunc>marb</trunc> # <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/> Elgin's <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/> # agents used # bribery <pause dur="0.4"/> to obtain this material <pause dur="1.4"/> # <pause dur="1.7"/> six lines down on the seven lines down on the third column of page one you see <pause dur="0.5"/> # he he he uses the word spoliation <pause dur="1.5"/> very emotive word still used today <pause dur="0.6"/> # by critics of Elgin <pause dur="1.5"/> and then he proposes <pause dur="0.4"/> # an amendment <pause dur="0.5"/> to the <pause dur="0.2"/> # to the # bill that's being discussed <pause dur="2.4"/> and <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="1.2"/> the <trunc>s</trunc> really significant bit of this amendment is the last bit just down towards the bottom <pause dur="0.3"/> bottom right hand <pause dur="0.2"/> # corner of your <pause dur="0.2"/> page one <pause dur="3.4"/> this this is part of his amendment this wasn't passed <pause dur="0.8"/> <reading>this committee therefore feels justified under the particular circumstances of the case <pause dur="0.3"/> in recommending that twenty-five-thousand pounds be offered to the Earl of Elgin for the collection <pause dur="0.3"/> in order to recover and keep it together for that government <pause dur="0.3"/> from which it has been improperly taken <pause dur="2.4"/>

and to which this committee is of the opinion <pause dur="0.7"/> that a communication should be immediately made <pause dur="0.6"/> stating <pause dur="0.3"/> that Great Britain holds these marbles <pause dur="0.3"/> only in trust <pause dur="0.5"/> till they're demanded by the present or any future possessors of the city of Athens <pause dur="1.0"/> and upon such demand engages without question or negotiation <pause dur="0.4"/> to restore them <pause dur="0.4"/> as far as can be effected <pause dur="0.3"/> to the places from whence they were taken <pause dur="0.6"/> and that they shall be in the meantime carefully preserved in the British Museum</reading> <pause dur="1.4"/> and once again he's not talking about the people of Greece <pause dur="0.3"/> he's not talking about the Greek nation <pause dur="0.3"/> he's talking about <pause dur="0.2"/> the Turkish government <pause dur="0.3"/> that's what he means by the government <pause dur="0.3"/> of <pause dur="0.5"/> # Athens <pause dur="1.1"/> government of Greece <pause dur="1.1"/> and <pause dur="0.2"/> he <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="1.3"/> # <pause dur="0.9"/> again alludes to the possibility that Greece may become # <pause dur="0.3"/> # a sovereign state <pause dur="0.2"/> but it's <trunc>n</trunc> not in any sense the the people would rise up <pause dur="0.4"/> and and claim their cultural <pause dur="0.2"/> # heritage <pause dur="2.8"/> # <pause dur="2.5"/> to summarize some of the other points made <trunc>i</trunc> in in the rest of page two of your handout <pause dur="0.8"/> # under B Mr

Croker <pause dur="0.3"/> another Member of Parliament <pause dur="1.1"/> # <pause dur="1.8"/> he <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> thinks that this argument of Mr Hammersley's is ridiculous <pause dur="0.2"/> the suggestion that we should be holding the sculptures in trust <pause dur="0.3"/> until the Russians come along and take them <pause dur="0.2"/> that's how he presents it <pause dur="0.3"/> slightly distorting what <pause dur="0.2"/> # Hammersley had said <pause dur="1.4"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> he then # suggests that the # <pause dur="0.2"/> the economic objections to buying the Elgin marbles <pause dur="0.3"/> were unfounded <pause dur="0.2"/> he thinks this is a good investment <pause dur="0.3"/> and will <trunc>i</trunc> it'll have <pause dur="0.2"/> tremendous impact on the <pause dur="0.4"/> the art and industry of Britain <pause dur="1.6"/> he says that when Pericles wanted to build the Parthenon <pause dur="0.6"/> he was # # he faced objections from people who said it's a needless expense <pause dur="0.7"/> # so # he <pause dur="0.3"/> he compares their position <pause dur="0.3"/> to Pericles <pause dur="0.4"/> to his # <pause dur="0.7"/> obviously no one would object to the Parthenon having been made in the first place <pause dur="2.2"/> and # finally he says that there was no sign that Lord Elgin had shown any rapacity <pause dur="1.4"/> # he had touched things he had he'd laid his hands on things which were already ruins <pause dur="1.5"/> he didn't go to Greece

with the intention of ravaging it <pause dur="0.4"/> or despoiling its temples <pause dur="0.4"/> he went with the highest motives <pause dur="0.3"/> and has brought back material which will be of great benefit to his <pause dur="0.2"/> nation <pause dur="2.2"/> # he also uses the argument which is <pause dur="0.2"/> still used today <pause dur="0.2"/> that if the sculptures had stayed in the Parthenon <pause dur="0.3"/> they would have been <pause dur="0.2"/> # very quickly destroyed and he gives <pause dur="0.3"/> <trunc>e</trunc> rather dubious evidence for <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> the <pause dur="0.4"/> the the the idea that # the local inhabitants of Athens were <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> # they're smashing up these sculptures and # <pause dur="0.2"/> turning them into mortar and that sort of thing <pause dur="0.2"/> clearly that was happening <pause dur="0.4"/> but there's a little bit of doubt over the particular <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> pieces of evidence that he uses <pause dur="2.2"/> # and then again the sentiments that he expresses # are # <pause dur="0.2"/> echoed # in the final column there under C <pause dur="0.5"/> right at the bottom <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> Mr Banks says that <reading>the most eminent artists had been consulted by the committee</reading> <pause dur="0.5"/> by the select committee

discussing the issue <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="1.9"/> he says that the sculptures <reading>by many were classed above and by others little below the highest works obtained since the restoration of art</reading> <pause dur="0.5"/> since the Renaissance <pause dur="0.9"/> # <reading>and # for forming a school of art <pause dur="0.3"/> they were considered <pause dur="0.2"/> as absolutely invaluable</reading> <pause dur="0.3"/> so they'd be an inspiration to the current <pause dur="0.4"/> neoclassical movement in art <pause dur="2.6"/> so you can read through those for yourself and look at the details <pause dur="0.4"/> and <pause dur="0.4"/> really you'll see the whole repertoire of arguments that are still used today <pause dur="2.0"/> # <pause dur="0.8"/> don't rush off because we'll discuss the seminar <pause dur="0.4"/> # in the next lecture i will look a little bit more on the issues of of nationalism in Greece and the way in which archaeology was implicated <pause dur="0.3"/> in the growth of the Greek state <pause dur="0.3"/> as well as the actual impact that the # Elgin marbles did in fact have <pause dur="0.3"/> on the art and architecture of Britain <pause dur="1.6"/>

now very quickly your # <pause dur="0.3"/> handout for the seminar <pause dur="0.4"/> giving you your instructions <pause dur="1.2"/> # <pause dur="2.5"/> # i i no longer have a copy but <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="1.3"/> i <pause dur="0.2"/> # if i recall i i'd asked you to do two things to look # for web sites <pause dur="0.7"/> that <pause dur="0.7"/> as well as the literature on your general bibliography <pause dur="0.3"/> which will # <pause dur="0.2"/> help you to work out what the arguments are <pause dur="0.2"/> on both sides of the contemporary <pause dur="0.3"/> # debate of the Elgin marbles <pause dur="0.2"/> should they be returned to Greece <pause dur="1.0"/> and of course <pause dur="0.5"/> you can make up your own mind where you stand <pause dur="0.2"/> for that argument <pause dur="0.5"/> it's not really our purpose to <pause dur="0.3"/> to <trunc>f</trunc> fight it out and come to a conclusion <pause dur="1.0"/> # but <pause dur="0.5"/> especially what i want you to do <pause dur="0.2"/> is to find # a polemical web site you will find them <pause dur="0.6"/> or if necessary to find some # # an article or a <pause dur="0.4"/> or <pause dur="1.1"/> # <trunc>i</trunc> <trunc>i</trunc> if you really can't cope with the # computers <pause dur="0.3"/> # you could look at Hitchens' book <pause dur="0.3"/> but find some sort of argument about the Elgin marbles today <pause dur="0.8"/> and <pause dur="0.9"/> analyse it think about how the # where the person's coming from <pause dur="0.3"/> how they're pitching their arguments <pause dur="0.4"/> # how they're # organizing their material <pause dur="0.2"/> how they're organizing historical evidence <pause dur="0.3"/> # to back up the particular <pause dur="0.3"/> # ideas that they hold <pause dur="1.1"/> # so that's the important thing not that you should come up with a view on the Elgin marbles <pause dur="0.3"/> but that you should be able to analyse