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ahsem004

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<title>Modes of Writing: Poetics</title></titleStmt>

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<idno>ahsem004</idno>

<availability><p>The British Academic Spoken English (BASE) corpus was developed at the

Universities of Warwick and Reading, under the directorship of Hilary Nesi

(Centre for English Language Teacher Education, Warwick) and Paul Thompson

(Department of Applied Linguistics, Reading), with funding from BALEAP,

EURALEX, the British Academy and the Arts and Humanities Research Board. The

original recordings are held at the Universities of Warwick and Reading, and

at the Oxford Text Archive and may be consulted by bona fide researchers

upon written application to any of the holding bodies.

The BASE corpus is freely available to researchers who agree to the

following conditions:</p>

<p>1. The recordings and transcriptions should not be modified in any

way</p>

<p>2. The recordings and transcriptions should be used for research purposes

only; they should not be reproduced in teaching materials</p>

<p>3. The recordings and transcriptions should not be reproduced in full for

a wider audience/readership, although researchers are free to quote short

passages of text (up to 200 running words from any given speech event)</p>

<p>4. The corpus developers should be informed of all presentations or

publications arising from analysis of the corpus</p><p>

Researchers should acknowledge their use of the corpus using the following

form of words:

The recordings and transcriptions used in this study come from the British

Academic Spoken English (BASE) corpus, which was developed at the

Universities of Warwick and Reading under the directorship of Hilary Nesi

(Warwick) and Paul Thompson (Reading). Corpus development was assisted by

funding from the Universities of Warwick and Reading, BALEAP, EURALEX, the

British Academy and the Arts and Humanities Research Board. </p></availability>

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<recording dur="01:36:53" n="pending">

<date>01/11/2000</date><equipment><p>video</p></equipment>

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<u who="nm5095"> here's my experience of being filmed # as # a teacher and as a reader # it usually makes a better a better a better seminar because # there's a a slightly outside pressure to and in fact we should all pretend that we're all being filmed all all the time and i bet some of us do do some of you do that have that kind of fantasy that your life is a kind of film or a story do you have that <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sm5096"> no i don't no

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah i do right it's just to wa-, just just just just to just to warm you up # please get out your pen and pen and pen and some some paper expandable paper please </u><u who="nm5095"> # i'm going to say a phrase please and i'd like you to write the phrase down and without thinking and then continue writing for two minutes without stopping writing at about <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> i will time you there's no need to look at your watch at all make sure you're using something that's not going to run out i mean in in you're all right you ready right the phrase for today is this is what i think and now i'm saying it this is what i think and now i'm saying it now let's go go go please write faster now stop and then please write in a column down the left hand side of the page the numbers one to eleven this is a Chinese New Year game it has a very creepy outcome you mustn't think ahead <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> write down one to eleven down the left hand side of the page now beside numbers one and two could you write down any two numbers that you want any two numbers that come into your head beside numbers one and two done that now beside three and seven could you write down the names of members of the opposite sex now don't don't don't look at it 'cause it won't turn right otherwise now write anyone's name like friends or family in the fourth fifth and sixth spot write down anyone's name friends or family in the fourth fifth or sixth spot and sixth spot don't cheat i'll be really upset if you do now in eight nine ten and eleven could you write down four song titles four song titles in eight nine ten an eleven and then finally i'd like you to make a wish and write that wish down can be anything you doing this <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sm5097"> sure

</u><u who="nm5095"> have you made your wish sorry i'm not going to ask what it is apart from <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>'s what's your what's your wish <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sm5142"> what's my wish

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah what's your wish

</u><u who="sm5142"> i really <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> can i just take a wish yeah yeah okay what's your wish <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sm5096"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah what does that say about <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> what's your wish <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sm5098"> # i wish <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> would get on with his washing

</u><u who="nm5095"> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> would get on with his washing # what's your wish <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sm5142"> i wish i could borrow <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> for a day so i could do my washing

</u><u who="nm5095"> # <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> what's your wish

</u><u who="sm5099"> to become a great writer

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah that's what i've tried with mine today # what's your wish

</u><u who="sm5097"> i wish i was on holiday

</u><u who="nm5095"> you wish you were on holiday in seven years time you'll look back on these seminars and it'll seem like a holiday what's your wish please

</u><u who="sf5100"> me

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah

</u><u who="sf5101"> # <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> say that more loudly

</u><u who="sf5101"> that i can <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> okay <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> what's your wish

</u><u who="sm5102"> i haven't written it down but i just forgot how shall i write it anyway

</u><u who="nm5095"> yes please

</u><u who="sm5102"> oh i wish i'd get what i want to be

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm good wish what's your wish

</u><u who="sf5103"> i wish i was moderately famous

</u><u who="nm5095"> moderately famous why don't you go for the whole lot here's the key of the game listen carefully you must tell this number of people the number in space two look at the number in space two you must tell that number of people about this writing game between now and tomorrow morning

</u><u who="nm5095"> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> how many people did you have

</u><u who="sm5142"> # twelve

</u><u who="nm5095"> twelve okay use email right number two the person in space three is the one that you love the person in space three is the one that you love <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> who's yours in space three

</u><u who="sm5104"> #

</u><u who="nm5095"> sorry

</u><u who="sm5104"> someone called <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> excellent <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sf5105"> well # i put the name <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> but i don't know if he's up for this

</u><u who="nm5095"> # well the person in space seven is the one that you like but you can't actually work them out you better write that down is one that you like but you can't actually work them out please write that down <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> who's that in your case yeah

</u><u who="sf5106"> # <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> right he's the one that like but you can't work him out

</u><u who="sf5106"> he's quite a mystery actually yeah

</u><u who="nm5095"> # space four space four please <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> the person in space four is the person you c-, you care most about the person in space four is the one you care most about <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> who's that where's <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> then

</u><u who="sm5107"> # someone called <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> oh the person in space five is the one tha-, who knows you very well indeed the one in space five is the one who knows you very well indeed <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> who's that

</u><u who="sm5108"> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> who's that

</u><u who="sf5109"> # my brother

</u><u who="nm5095"> # is that true

</u><u who="sf5109"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> but for the sake of this workshop it is the person in six is your lucky star person in six is your lucky star name who's that for your life

</u><u who="sf5109"> # that's my mum

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm thank you the song in eight is the song that matches with the person in number three the song in eight is the song that matches with the person in number three <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> what's yours

</u><u who="sm5098"> what the song

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah

</u><u who="sm5098"> it's a song called Kiss the Day Goodbye

</u><u who="nm5095"> # who's who's the person it matches with

</u><u who="sm5098"> # <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> who i don't know anything about yet

</u><u who="nm5095"> you will

</u><u who="sm5098"> okay

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah the title in nine is the song for the person in seven the title in nine is the song for the person in seven who's that for <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sm5110"> # what the person or the song

</u><u who="nm5095"> both

</u><u who="sm5110"> # everything you want # and the person is <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm is that

</u><u who="sm5110"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> makes no sense with that yeah it does in a way

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm it will make sense

</u><u who="sm5110"> mm

</u><u who="nm5095"> it's like the start the tenth space is the song that tells you most about your own mind the tenth space is the song that tells you most about your own mind <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> what's that

</u><u who="sf5111"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> by <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> okay would you say that it's true

</u><u who="sf5111"> # scaringly yes probably

</u><u who="nm5095"> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> what's your song

</u><u who="sm5096"> it's Respect by Aretha Franklin

</u><u who="nm5095"> i have a i have a vision of you in about five minutes time <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> driving around in your Aston with Respect but yeah # who's your person in two

</u><u who="sm5096"> # in two

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah in space two

</u><u who="sm5096"> space two is another one

</u><u who="nm5095"> is that p-, person in space three sorry

</u><u who="sm5096"> # <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> the <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> sitting beside you

</u><u who="sm5096"> # yeah go on then

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm and eleven is the song telling you how you feel about your own life

</u><u who="nm5095"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> which one's yours

</u><u who="sm5097"> My Favourite Mistake

</u><u who="nm5095"> sorry

</u><u who="sm5097"> My Favourite Mistake

</u><u who="nm5095"> My Favourite Mistake <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> what's yours

</u><u who="sf5106"> it's Street Spirit by Radiohead

</u><u who="nm5095"> all right what's yours

</u><u who="sm5097"> Angie

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm will that ever become truth

</u><u who="sm5097"> no

</u><u who="nm5095"> it will do hey <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> what's the song that tells you most about your own life

</u><u who="sm5097"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> called Forgotten <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> okay right just bear those things in mind for a little while because now between now and # eleven o'clock i want you to compose a limerick based upon everything that you have just discovered in that i want you to compose a limerick based upon what you just discovered from that do you think you can do that

</u><u who="sf5112"> funny or serious

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm

</u><u who="sf5112"> is it funny or serious or

</u><u who="nm5095"> oh this is because the however how do you want to turn it at all the thing is <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> that they i advise them in form <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> they can choose a funny form <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> you have ten minutes ten minutes ten minutes of quiet composition try and get used to this writing in class because when <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> takes over she'll have you doing this three times at a session that's why i'm doing it with you now one of the reasons why i'm doing it with you now okay <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> you might have to read yours out

</u><u who="sf5109"> fantastic

</u><u who="nm5095"> but you will have to send it to ten people within # an hour within two hours obviously and if you do that your wish will come true if you don't it will become the opposite

</u><u who="nm5095"> how is it going

</u><u who="sm5113"> not very good

</u><u who="nm5095"> just get the rhythm the rhythm of the first line going in in in in in your head and even if you don't have to read it out i would quickly like you to try to write it you you will have to get used to this so so you better start now don't forget that <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> talks at least five times faster than i do and will bombard you with exercises and in your second year if you work with me for instance in The Practice of Poetry this is the thing we'll just be doing very very quickly teaches you a certain facility try not to worry about it just # pen it out batter it out # there's a couple of other people i'd like to come to my office hour too # <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> and <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> as well could you both come together you're okay come on Thursday between four and six

</u><u who="sm5142"> four and six

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah sorry it's nothing bad for those of you who have finished # it might be a good idea if you just make a list of the people that you're going to send this game to otherwise you'll have to do that rather quickly and also a list of ten people that you're going to send the poem to because if you do i assure you your wish will come true this is actually a game that was invented in Hong Kong about a month ago this game that you're doing now it's a Chinese New Year game and it's the it's the it's the game of the iron dragon if there's somebody born in the year of the dragon and i think i think it's a fine year it has a particular end justifies its means there i'll come to that because i see people's pens dropping shall i just spin the pen or shall i pick out <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> i read a book about this what you do is you get you to choose this now you're in charge of the seminar <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> it's your job to get # three people to read out voluntarily

</u><u who="sm5114"> okay

</u><u who="nm5095"> it's not in my hands it's in yours and you'll have to learn how to do this very quickly because you shall see that the second year and and the third years of this course has their own writing groups and writing societies their own writing magazines and all that and although i can i can i can kind of help you to kick-start at all those things it's not really my job to involve myself to closely in this you got to learn to do to do those things yourself

</u><u who="sm5115"> okay does anyone play a musical instrument put up your hands please

</u><u who="nm5095"> who plays a musical instrument

</u><u who="sm5115"> okay

</u><u who="nm5095"> did you see the people over there

</u><u who="sm5115"> yeah yeah oh sorry can i counted four all those people do you enjoy playing your instrument if not why do you play it

</u><u who="sm5116"> # i don't play it any more but # well i do play it but # i don't enjoy it so much

</u><u who="sm5115"> oh

</u><u who="sm5097"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>

</u><u who="sm5115"> has anybody has anybody ever enjoyed playing a musical instrument

</u><u who="sm5117"> yes, i enjoy it

</u><u who="sm5115"> well i think you should read your poem then because i hope that'll give you the same sort of buzz

</u><u who="nm5095"> very good

</u><u who="sm5117"> okay # a momentous feeling and a good mistake is how my life will end it's you i dare for you i care and i'm in love with my best friend i fall and you will fall i need i need to work you out for real my lucky star is way too far but you're still here and close to me

</u><u who="nm5095"> what's your response to that

</u><u who="sm5115"> # i i thought it was great i was # too busy thinking about i don't know who's my next person

</u><u who="nm5095"> you were trying to think ahead to what was going to happen next

</u><u who="sm5115"> i'm afraid i was

</u><u who="nm5095"> and not able to think on the spot that was very good you're using extreme long a long line

</u><u who="sm5117"> oh yeah okay

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah there's another # secret with the seminar <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> but you should never do this you should always pick up on the people who're most confident all right 'cause they're easy they always want to be there you know it's like you know you and and it's it's it's easy peasy but you got to do something likely to stun just more random so who's going to be in charge of the seminar now to get another person to read out <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> so you're in charge of the seminar yeah okay teach us choose somebody but bring somehow bring them out

</u><u who="sm5117"> #

</u><u who="nm5095"> flush them up

</u><u who="sm5117"> what i mean i just read my poem so you can do it as well

</u><u who="nm5095"> ahum

</u><u who="sm5117"> # # and it's not a brilliant one and # so just go ahead and do it

</u><u who="nm5095"> how are you going to find the person who's willing to answer that particular message that you just said there which was very good

</u><u who="sm5117"> well i'm not very good at this but i like poetry and i think we're all here because we do like poetry and just like <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> said just now i love music as well and i just read my poem out it doesn't hurt i promise

</u><u who="nm5095"> ahum

</u><u who="sm5117"> # so <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> you try you try

</u><u who="nm5095"> so good very good

</u><u who="sf5105"> okay my lucky super star is <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> my music is smoke my pain i can't be without it yet i can't reach <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> taste all that bittersweet rain

</u><u who="nm5095"> good <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> try and flush somebody else there

</u><u who="sf5105"> # <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sm5115"> i met <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> about six weeks ago and she still thinks my name is James so that shows how well she knows me

</u><u who="sf5105"> so perhaps you should read read

</u><u who="sm5142"> my name is <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> right

</u><u who="nm5095"> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> you're going to be in charge of the seminar in about a minute

</u><u who="sm5142"> okay

</u><u who="nm5095"> so sit back and read

</u><u who="sm5142"> right # i wish i could find a way to say all i want to say but i can't hear the song and i sing it all wrong so i sit on the dock of a bay

</u><u who="nm5095"> very good very genius # now what you could do now is trying to find something to read out something probably written in the previous seminars which is a dark limerick

</u><u who="sm5115"> right # put up your hand if you went to a private school or public school where you paid fees

</u><u who="sm5117"> what for for the whole thing for a bit of it for a

</u><u who="sm5115"> for for for all of your education yeah

</u><u who="sf5119"> all right

</u><u who="nm5095"> one two three four five six seven just what i that's # very interesting right that's # yeah it's about twenty-five per cent well below the national average

</u><u who="nm5095"> that's the Warwick way

</u><u who="sm5115"> # right i then pick #

</u><u who="nm5095"> there's one right next to you

</u><u who="sm5115"> yeah otherwise he'll do it to me so he he

</u><u who="nm5095"> fair enough even though he it's already happened to you

</u><u who="sm5115"> true okay <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sm5142"> thanks for the support then

</u><u who="sm5115"> it's all right

</u><u who="nm5095"> while he's flicking through his pieces you might also want to be flicking through your pieces too

</u><u who="nm5095"> what do you think is the best thing you've written <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sm5142"> # i did have several and they were really quite pleasant and # #

</u><u who="nm5095"> good

</u><u who="sm5142"> and i tried i # can i read something else

</u><u who="nm5095"> sure

</u><u who="sm5142"> # and i'll come back to these

</u><u who="nm5095"> make a choice why do you think i'm asking you to make the choice of piece of work in this sidelong way simply because in # Monday after reading week you'll be handing in piece of work that you consider your best piece of work that's arisen out of the four poetry units in this course so you need to be making the choice and if you want to discuss some of your choices come and see me in my office hour or # come and see me next week in my office # hour too back to <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sm5142"> okay # last weekend i # wrote a poem about Saigon because i just # got back from there # it had quite a profound effect on me and it's called Saigon traffic a colourful hat scuffles down the clamouring street swallowed up by hungry marked eyes a hound fork sales by <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> angry money a despondent fray in frantic struggle for a ticket to tomorrow voices shriek like two cats in a tussle the sky draws in the <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> a whiskey beard is selling some incense fingers purpled by vegetables and blood coaxing the aged with syncopated French the language of a relented past occasionally you'll hear a clause of ingenious youth drinking cokes in white man's bars night air speaks in pidgin American twenty dollar Bruce Willis New York Superman a frail gone suite has been counting the days since sound was forced to head homeward bound were his legs but saved is his face the ubiquitous sun blotted out by a moon and all that remains where the bodies lay strewn are ancient paddies visuals of wounded ground a cotton suite wades in these fields to his knees with a strong and sure hand he scatters some seeds

</u><u who="nm5095"> well done <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> who are you going to choose next

</u><u who="sm5142"> # well # i think we should have a girl because we don't have many and <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> was looking interested

</u><u who="sf5120"> mm thank you # mm

</u><u who="nm5095"> which would you like to read

</u><u who="sf5120"> # i don't mind reading them right but i can't decide if i'd rather read on of the more comic ones or one of the dark ones #

</u><u who="nm5095"> why don't you just give me one of each

</u><u who="sf5120"> oh okay # okay here's the first one she held her <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> body so tightly and <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> touching her lightly her hands were stained red from his still <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> head but she couldn't l-, let go even slightly and that was like my slightly dark one and then this is # a more comic one he looked at his wobbling pot-belly itching and twitching like jelly the demon was beer he discovered with fear whilst watching soft porn on the telly

</u><u who="nm5095"> that's pretty dark too but but but but but but by the way you know this feeling of fear and # apprehension you're feeling about this reading out in class and also what you choose to read out and what you choose to submit for this course or what you choose to submit for magazines this is a terrifically important part of being a writer tonight Doris Lessing is going to # arrive at the university she's eighty-two years old she was born in nineteen-nineteen and she's obviously an incredibly world famous writer she's published been publishing since the nineteen-fifties and was up for the Nobel Prize i know that when she arrives at six o'clock i'm going to have to take her through very carefully what she's going to be choosing to read to you guys and she won't know what to read and she won't know which pieces she should be reading and she's been doing this for years and also she needs help from her editors about what she puts in particular books and also from even her readers about you know which which is her best or most representative work you could go on and on and on but you need to find other people to help you with making these choices and you need to learn also a little bit about how how you do it yourself or how you help other people to do it now <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> # taken us some longer

</u><u who="sm5096"> you want me to

</u><u who="nm5095"> i want you to read something that you've written # out of this particular unit

</u><u who="sm5096"> #

</u><u who="nm5095"> scary isn't it

</u><u who="sm5096"> i'll read my fifty-nine poem

</u><u who="nm5095"> okay do it live do it fast

</u><u who="sm5096"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> very good # before we take a break i'm going to give give you a very short practical session in how you submit your work to magazines this isn't often done it's usually done with postgraduates not with undergraduates but i'm finding more and more that the the standard of the writing that my own undergraduates are producing is of a publishable standard but because they lack confidence about their own writing they don't often send it out and the other reason why they don't send it out is because they don't know how to # this is how it works in this country this a very boring part of the seminar and i'm afraid it's not going to work on the film but it's important for you guys even though it's boring and i wish somebody had told me this when i was 18 or 19 right when you when you're choosing to submit pieces of work to a magazine or a journal first you have to do you you have to be familiar with with with with the journal you have to know what the journal is like what the magazine is like there's no point in sending a nature poem for instance to Leaf Scientist or the Independent there's no point at all you won't get read or get accepted you have to know which kind of magazines are going to take your poem so how do you go about that step one read the magazines where are they some of them are in the are in the library here now listen # most undergraduates do this when they go into the library you see them doing this they go straight in they swipe their cards they go up to the third floor and they sometimes use some of the books from the OPAC there you shouldn't always do that when you go into the library instead of going straight on on to the lifts turn left turn left against these things there which are the magazine racks those magazine racks contain if you go to the Arts # area about twenty poetry magazines from around the world including things like you might want to write this down Poetry Review Poetry Chicago P-N Review it's called Poetry Nation Review <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> The London Review of Books The Times Literary Supplement The Realtor The London Magazine which is by the way the magazine where Keats was first published still going # that's just a few what i want you to to to do probably between now and and the end of week six is actually to go to that magazine rack find a magazine read them and see which one best suits you now it has to be said that there're hundreds and hundreds of magazines some are small press some are bigger press and if you want to find out all the magazines the place to go to is not our library or any library but a place called the Poetry Library the Poetry Library could you write that down this is an incredibly good resource it's one of the best resources in Europe well it's it's it's certainly one of the best outside a-, America it's in the Royal Festival Hall on the fifth floor of the Royal Festival Hall on the South Bank Centre in London fifth floor Royal Festival Hall now however poor or rich you are either take a train there through all those smashed trees or hitchhike # if you're interested and concerned about poetry that place is heaven it's also a house of heavenly poetic opening hours too it doesn't open at nine and and close at five so it opens at eleven which is good and it closes at eight o'clock at night which is also good now it contains you might want to write this down again every book of contemporary poetry every book of contemporary poetry in English that's been published in the twentieth century two copies of each one for reference that you can't take away and one copy that can be taken away membership is free and the librarian's name there who's in charge of the whole thing is called Mary Enright Mary Enright please please write that down i'm giving you i'm giving you contacts now # she knows me and the work i do and if you go along and you say that you're a student and part of this course she will know exactly what you're talking about and will help you it's a great place to research if you're doing research it's also a very good place to write it doesn't just contain books it contains audio audio and video C-D-ROMs and importantly magazines it contains and takes a sub-, a subscription of every poetry magazine that's published in this country and most of them in America too that's the important thing what i would suggest that you do sometimes maybe as a maybe as a team or i-, individually is going to that library and spend an entire day or two days reading those magazines and see what they feel like everything from Haiku Quarterly if you're into Haiku there's an entire magazine devoted to that to P-N Review which you can get in in the library here to strange things like Psychopoetica really small press weird things there's some very strange magazines out there but often that's where the most valuable and interesting work is taking place 'cause if you write something bizarre sorry i wasn't looking at you there that sort of thing the there bizarre speciously even if you send that to the London Magazine they ain't going to take it because it's slightly conservative in its take-up on poetry it's nothing entirely wrong with that it's just that they want to publish a certain type of poetry the psy-, Psychopoetica say would have no problem with that so just because your work might get rejected from one magazine might not mean that that work is somehow bad or has failed it just means you've sent it to the wrong magazine now that's terribly terribly important now other magazines you should know about too which you probably do on the campus here # one magazine that grew grew out of the programme about two years ago and was run by some students like like yourselves it's called The Moebius let me just write that down on the board i remember what fun we had choosing that title The Moebius which is now a national magazine for poetry and takes submissions from # anybody but which is rather largely dominated by ex-Warwick students has to be said because they they writing about it and the Malacoda have you come across the Malacoda that's a campus-based magazine that's asking for submissions right now and it's run by two students who are second years in your degree # <gap reason="name" extent="2 words"/> and <gap reason="name" extent="2 words"/> and the third one is called The Black Beast the Black Beast now the good things about all these magazines is that they're not just # # amateur productions they actually have quite high professional standards of production and also and this is something that i very much insist on right from from the beginning they have very high editorial standards too it's actually quite hard to get into but the standard of the work is terribly terribly good as a result now those are those are three magazines on the campus i think you should try and read those two right now this is how you submit writing to magazines you don't submit your life's work nothing is more <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> i've edited my work for # poetry presses too there's nothing more off o-, o-, o-, off-p-, p-, p-, off-putting than somebody submitting a huge volume of inadequate poetry choose your best poems and send no more than four to one magazine at any time if you're not happy with any of those poems don't send those poems because if you're not happy with them the editor certainly won't be either that's just basic common sense # and although it seems like a truism honestly most people who've sent stuff to magazines don't have a clue about this sort of thing they just think that they're geniuses to start off with and would send it in and lots of it too rather than just a kernel of really good work right when you send work you should also also send a short covering letter now i emphasis the word short there it should be no more than two paragraphs you should not make a personal plea for your work your work should speak for itself many people make the mistake of sending a letter which is like sometimes extremely long long winded and very personal and it's not really about their own work it's about themselves and their view of themselves as an artist and frankly that's of no interest i'm sorry but that's of no interest to an editor at all unless you become terribly well known like Mark <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> then journalists might start preying into your personal life and your activity or might be interviewing you at <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> or Cheltenham Literature Festival about your personal life but when it comes to sending new work out your own personality is of no interest the work is short two paragraphs and it should be something like this please find enclosed X number of poems for consideration second paragraph i enclose an S-A-E for their return i enclose an S-A-E for their return because the likelihood is they will be returned to to you but you never know now the S-A-E is a stamped addressed envelope and one of the cardinal sins that many writers and new writers do is not just that they write long letters and submit their life's work but they don't enclose a self-addressed envelope # a publisher of a magazine is under no obligation to read your work or to send it back to you unless you enclose a self-addressed envelope if you're submitting work overseas particularly to America you obviously can't enclose an an American stamp on your envelope therefore you enclose an envelope and what's called an international reply coupon an I-R-C which you can buy in the post office they cost about fifty-P an I-R-C you'll get your work back and you will <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> other rules of the game never submit work by email never submit work by email it's too easy to do these days it's too easy to do and most magazines will not accept submissions by email in fact when i get work sent by e-, email i delete it straight away there's not enough time other things to bear in mind too the long wait you will have to wait for this work to come back allow up to about three or four months for a message to come back as in saying yes or no takes a while why does it take that simply because most magazines are underfunded and

most most of the editors of these ma-, magazines work for nothing but they do it in the small hours # the London Magazine is a famous magazine it's edited in a shed you know you have to bear those things in mind this magazine is eighteen years old it's edited from a shed now it may have a huge international reputation but it has those constraints upon it so wait and wait and wait do not hassle the publisher or get impatient other rules too poets don't have agents poets do not have agents unless you're a performance poet poets do not have agents that's terrifically important and if people think they can send their work to agents now those people will be snapped up fiction writers use agents because fiction is an engine for creating money i talked about this i think in # in week two big difference between poetry and fiction poetry is not going to earn you any money okay you do it for other reasons you can be Seamus <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> and still be making fifteen-thousand a year he makes money by other means by teaching actually he teaches at # Princeton now don't hassle agents with your poems send it directly to the editors and do not hassle the editors stamped addressed envelope <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> and no more than four poems everything should be typed or word processed and it should all be in one-and-a-half space okay one-and-a-half space so it's clear use a good printer do not use a dot matrix printer <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> or an inadequate typewriter make sure it's really crystal clear and that the poems appear on on the page exactly how you wish the poems to appear sometimes your work will be accepted sometimes it will be rejected how do you cope with rejection how do you cope with rejection

</u><u who="sm5121"> # </u><u who="nm5095"> </u><u who="sm5121"> just do it

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm there's a a certain thing about those things they're called rejection slips now rejection in this case is not rejection of you as a person it's rejection of your work and most writers not just not just all writers will be rejected at some point from James Joyce to Richards Adams to whoever they've all been rejected most people get <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> for a lucky break Seamus <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> is a very good example of that for a time he was quite anonymous it was only because a friend of his who knew his work well tipped of Favour that he was any good and Favour got in touch with him and he it was just luck it was just a lucky break he could be <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> instead and still be as good as Seamus <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> is you can be invisible and you you can still be good so how do you cope with rejection when that work comes back this is how you send it off that day to another magazine immediately send it off on the same day now the reason to do that you do that is that when you've got work out sent out when you got work out to be considered there's a strange feeling of hope that will be inside of yourself that next day something is going to come through your letterbox and it's going to be something accepting your work make sure that that work that comes back from somebody goes straight out again so you can keep that feeling going the last bit is about vanity presses there are a lot of vanity presses about vanity presses exist to take your work whatever quality dubious or good and publish it and charge you a fee for doing so if anybody ever asks you for money for publishing your work you should not proceed further with the deal do not sign anything do not send in any contract do not get into that area 'cause this is the big warning if you're good and you're published by a vanity press and you then send your work to a reviewer or another editor however good you are the chances are is that A you will not be reviewed and B your work will not be accepted by a mainstream or even a small press ever again because be aware that with a vanity press and a vanity press is in short a corrupt and a corrupting business a vanity press is just for one purpose and that is to make money for itself not to sell your work now vanity presses are often advertised in things like The Times Literary Supplement they say we want war memoirs poetry children's books nobody wants more war memoirs poetry or children's books there are millions of theses things nobody no publisher in their right minds would advertise for more submissions but the <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> will then send their work whatever the quality good or bad to these places and you will get a letter back often within two days saying we think you're outstanding this is fantastic you're the next Keats now we're going to publish you in this anthology which will be leather tooled now to help us with our printing cost could you please send us two-thousand pound now this may this may sound strange but people then do send them and they say no you can you can pay you can pay in thirty pound instalments you sign it away because you're so pleased the next thing you're tied to a contract which is going to mean you're sending out thirty pounds a month for maybe a couple of years you then receive back a leather tooled book which looks absolutely ghastly where all the poems are going to be packed in in a really really intelligible typescript with a letter saying we're sending this book for review to The Independent The Sun The Express The Mail now the only paper that might review poetry is The Independent The Sun doesn't review poetry or literary stuff it doesn't review it neither does The Mail nor The Express but it sounds good and if you don't know this information you may fall for it but The Independent doesn't review vanity press books so what's happened is that you've you've lost two-thousand pounds you've got this book that looks like a book which actually isn't a book and nobody's going to read it apart from you and your own friends and it's about your own vanity now i'm not saying this to be hard up on anybody who's ever got into this what i'm saying is is that you got onto this course because we believe in you as good prospective potential writers or even real writers now if you get into that particular vanity area at an early stage it can destroy you as a writer because you'll get positive feedback which is actually false positive feedback and you'll be paying for it let's take a break come back in ten minutes

</u><gap reason="break in recording" extent="uncertain"/> <u who="nm5095"> hello it just occurred to me during the break now what i was saying about vanity publishing that applies very much here in the U-K and in # and in America which are the two principle markets for poetry # that doesn't hold true in places like Greece or # India or # Russia where quite simply there aren't any presses <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> there are there are some particular presses and in those particular presses you might you might have to pay but it's not va-, it's not actually vanity vanity publishing simply because the presses don't exist so you have to make it up as you go along on the board is the word poetics poetics poetics is a crucial matter that you need to introduce yourselves to as soon as possible it applies not just to yourself as a writer it applies across the board of all your academic studies and it applies to you as a person too poetics is a very loose phrase though # what it means is just like up on up on the board it's the implicit principles the implicit principles of your own writing and that can also mean the implicit principles of yourself as a writer now having written down the two things that are generally important to you as you could you try and write down two things that are important to you as a writer or the writer that you would like to become two things that you imagine are really really crucial to you as a writer now or as the writer that you'd like to become try and look ahead maybe twenty years time and think of yourself as an immaculately turned out super writer with a Noble Prize and think about the principles that you might be hanging on to that you might have now or you might have had but which are going to get battered as the years go by but you need to hold on to them because they're important to you as a writer or to your writing because those my friends are your poetics those are your poetics so why devote an entire lecture to what poetics is because if you actually open a one of these excellent texts like this which is my bible which is The New Princeton Encyclopaedia of Poetry and Poetics you will see that the the chapter on poetics is about that big lots of poets have their own poetics let me just introduce you to some aspects of poetics before i ask you for yours one could be you might want to write this down the choice of what you write about your subject the choice of what you write about you make the choice about what to write about your subject now one of the reason of this as a set text in the Modes of Reading The New Poetry one of the reasons why this is a set text for the Modes of Reading and the Modes of Writing # is because it is it is apparently a divers enough book to illustrate a number of poetics as well if you look into this book you'll find people like Caroline Duffy writing from the point of view of a psychopath a male psychopath now that's a <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> of what poetics means she's chosen a subject and a voice in order just to make a particular point you'll also find poems in here that are intensely political by people like Sean O'Brian you might want to write this down too something by Sean O'Brian which are basically political attacks upon right wing thinking now he's chosen to write those attacks in the forms of poetry he's chosen a subject politics and that's part of his poetics because he cares Sean O'Brian and Caroline Duffy care deeply about the political landscape of the last twenty years another aspect of poetics language language and i don't mean languages as in French Spanish Indian Chinese whatever i mean how you choose the language of your poems whether you choose to say write in a contemporary voice as though you're speaking to people or an example again from The New Poetry <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> who chooses to write in a very colloquial voice now that's a deliberate choice that <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> has made and it's part of his poetics it's to get across to a large number of people using dialect voices i'm going to read you an example of this to see if you can pick up the poetics behind it the implicit principles # have you have you all read the poem that finishes this book which i have very deliberately placed at the end of the book so that people would read it it's called Very Simply Topping Up The Brake Fluid why not open your copy of The New Poetry i'm going to read it out so you don't actually need it in front of you but if you've got it in front of you you've got the trick now i put this on page two-hundred-and-forty which is the last page of this book i put it there to make a statement about what i thought poetry was up to at this moment in time # Very Simply Topping Up The Brake Fluid is the title of the poem now that's an interesting act very interesting title it's not called ode to <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> it's called Very Simply Topping Up The Brake Fluid yes love that's why the warning light comes on don't panic fetch some universal brake fluid and a five <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> screw driver from your tool kit the prop the <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> open go on it won't eat you now without slicing through the <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> belt try and drive the sharp end of the screw driver under the lid and push the <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> go on that's it now you're alright <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> screw clockwise and you'll see it's rusting love back to front that's it you see it's empty now gently with your hand and i mean gently try and create a bit of space by pushing the float chain sideways so there's room to pour gently does it that's it try not to spill it it's corrosive rust you know and fill it till it's level with the notch of the clutch reservoir lovely there's some <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> in the office if you want to wash and some soft roll above assistant for well you know oh don't mind him love he doesn't bite come here and sit down my Prince Prince now where's that bloody alternator managed oh any time love i won't charge you for that because it's nothing of a job if you want us again we're in the book tell your husband now you can tell what sort of voice that's written in what sort of person that's written in who's supposed to be who's supposed to be writing that poem what's <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> done there what choice has he made with the language <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sm5142"> mechanic

</u><u who="nm5095"> yes it's it's it's written <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> of a of a mechanic now i know lots of mechanics who don't speak like that and you probably know lots mechanics who do speak like that and speak like that to women when they come in with their cars and say things like if you want us again we're in the book tell your husband now # those of you who're working into form by the way if you're looking down that poem i read it in a particular way i read it quickly as if it was spoken by a real person it reads as though it's written by a real person as though it's spoken that's a deliberate choice that Simon <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> has made but if you go down you'll see there're not a lot of half rhymes and full rhymes in there he rhymes brake fluid with tool kit which is # an <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> one don'ts and won'ts are full rhymes # screwdriver and connector # and or rushing and pushing is rhymed empty ad gently pour and reservoir it's and its office and prints and above and love and managed and husband which is a consonant alignment and then that and want they're loose half rhymes there's a kind of form imposed upon there he's made he's also made a choice of form if you look at it it appears to be in what <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> call <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> chains four line stances it's a poem it's a poem it's in a form it's in <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> chains it's got half rhymes it's a poem but it doesn't sound like it does it now he's made a choice about the language he's chosen colloquial speech why do you think he's done that so what do you think

</u><u who="sf5122"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> sorry

</u><u who="sf5122"> he's exposing the stereotype

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah he's he's he's displaying and exposing the stereotype why do you think he's he's choosing to to do that

</u><u who="sm5123"> it's not generally associated or

</u><u who="nm5095"> it certainly isn't yeah that's that's that's right it's not associated but by by doing that he's exposing a masculine stereotype and in the way of mocking it he's he's using a poem in order to as his vehicle to do it which is which is political it's political not only that it's also a political poem it's a feminist poem written by a man in the 1980s late 1980s and it's called Very Simply Topping Up The Brake Fluid it's also it's also having a little go at poetry as well surely because most people's ideas about poetry are yeah yeah it might be in <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> chains it might rhyme but it is certainly not called things like Very Simply Topping Up The Brake Fluid is it it's called ode ode to this and ode to that so he's breaking ground with poetry as well as trying to get some political message across at the same time without sacrificing any of the art that's part of Simon <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>'s poetics and it's part of the poetics of a lot of poets in this why i'm writing i'm saying this to you is because i want you to be thinking about your own poetics that's why i want you to actually write these things down let me just touch upon something else syntax syntax by the way all these things apply in other forms of writing they apply in fiction as well they apply in the way in the way that a novel might be put together too they're deliberate choices made by the individual writer syntax syntax is the order in which the words are the order of the words you choose to order your words in a particular way you'll have your reasons even if you're free writing you'll have your reasons now syntax in this

book again as an illustration has anybody here read the poem by # Tom <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> Ten o'clock News let me just try and find it for you is anybody here Scottish excellent have you got a copy of The New Poetry close to you

</u><u who="sm5098"> aye

</u><u who="nm5095"> great right well go to page seventy please and go to the poem called Unrelated Incidents syntax syntax folks the order of the words the way that words are put together do you think you could handle reading Unrelated Incidents to us

</u><u who="sm5098"> certainly

</u><u who="nm5095"> you have to read i mean look at that poem in front of you Unrelated Incidents it's written in Scots it's written in Scots dialect now i can't do a Scots accent could you handle it

</u><u who="sm5098"> possibly yeah

</u><u who="nm5095"> have a go at the first the first part

</u><u who="sm5098"> how am i supposed to read it

</u><u who="nm5095"> sorry

</u><u who="sm5098"> how am i supposed to read this

</u><u who="nm5095"> # it's it's the language

</u><u who="sm5098"> no i mean

</u><u who="nm5095"> oh the <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> no oh that you just read it down

</u><u who="sm5098"> (poem in Scots)

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah okay yes that's fine yeah now why is that poem written in that particular way what do you reckon <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sm5098"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> what about part three this is the six o'clock news the man said and the reason i'm talking with a B-B-C accent is because you want me to talk about the truth (poem in attempted Scots from here) this is the six o'clock news belt up why is that written in that particular way as you see i really can't do a Scottish accent i just read it i just read it # <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sm5097"> he's talking about language

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah he's making a particular statement about about about about the languages and also about the the validity of language too what did the Simon <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> poem do think about the Simon <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> poem again and think about this one the Simon <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> poem is is read out best if you talk like myself or Simon <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> that is you have a northern accent it's written in a northern accent this is written in a Scots accent and it's about it's about the six o'clock news and it's about truth and the way we talk and about language he's using syntax he's disturbing the syntax the order of the words in the way he's writing for a particular point what do you think that point is

</u><u who="sm5124"> # that # things only sound relevant said in a certain accent

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm yeah you also you also have to locate this poem in the time it was written which is probably about the early eighties i mean it's changed now if you listen to the # six o'clock news now or the ten o'clock news there are people on who are indeed Scottish or or Welsh and at this particular point they were they were usually white they were usually # middle class and they had # Received Pronunciation # the idea behind that poem is that is that the way that truth is told in this particular country is usually best received if you're if you're white middle class and you have Received Pronunciation and not if you're Scottish Indian Asian Welsh Irish or whatever now that's changed and that's one of the reasons why this that poem <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> introduce you to the idea that there's a lot of plurality in poetry in the way it can be written and there's a plurality in this country too so it's again syntax for a number of purposes language itself playing with the language but also a political point too couple of other things too voice and persona this is again part of poetics voice and persona persona is when you is when you as you actually probably know if you put on a mask persona is about putting on a mask is when you put on a mask and you write from a completely different point of view you'll be asked to do this quite a lot by <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> writing from from another person's point of view now there's a lot going on here with that particular thing one is # # in terms of <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> there are poems here by Fred <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> as well who was with us # a couple of weeks ago a little late # <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> and <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> Johnson where they they're using a a voice and a persona in a particular way to get across to you and expose what it was like to be a black person in this country in the nineteen-eighties and the nineteen-nineties and still is sometimes i i suggest that you read these and you think about them and you think about your own poetics and the last one i wrote down here is form form that's a kind of poetics too choosing to use form in a particular way <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> from now for four weeks and different forms and trying two different things the choice the choice to write in form is something that you deliberate about you do choose to write in form you know when i say write in a <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> write in a limerick write me a sonnet write me twenty lines of this write me five lines of this i'm asking you to do that in order to practise rather than to produce great works of art but just to practise but some people very deliberately choose not to write in form and example of this here might be something like <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> and again you have to ask yourself no i'll give you a different example i'll give you # Paul <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> Paul <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> is an Irish poet # now the poem that i am going to read to to you is not in form there's there's no form to it at all and he's deliberately chosen not to do so At The Funeral Of The Marriage this is about his divorce at the funeral of the marriage my wife and i passed on either side of the grave our children racing (?) behind it by the way it's on page 60 as the coffin was entered down in the bottomless grave our children stood in a half circle playing on flutes and recorders my wife and i held hands while the mourners wept and the gravediggers unfilled shovelfulls of clay down on top of the coffin we solely walked away accomplices beneath the <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> trees we had a cup of tea in the graveyard cafe across the streets from the gates and discussed the texture of the undertaker's face it's beaten quality as i gazed at my wife i wondered who on earth she was i saw that she was a green-eyed stranger i said to her would you like to go to a film and she said i'd love to go to a film in the back seats of a cinema sorry i would love to go to a film in the back seats of the cinema as we slid up and down in our seats in a frenzy of hugs and clasps the manager courteously asked us not to take off our clothes we walked off urgently through the rain strewn street into a <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> sudden cul de sac and as from the <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> of our bed <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> with sighs and cries we threw our funeral garments to the floor we could hear laughter outside the door there is no noise children love more to hear than the noise of their parents making love oh my darling who on earth are you now that's not written in form at all why do you think it's it's about it's about divorce and getting back together why has he chosen that to be #

</u><u who="sm5125"> because it's complex

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm-hmm

</u><u who="sm5125"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> pattern <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> he's found some pattern too hasn't he # for the sake of the subject and if you like the the the address that is the person he's speaking to # who is he speaking to oh my darling who on earth are you he says is he speaking to his wife and # the thing the thing i'm trying to get get across to you here is that this is actually quite an extreme poem it's it's talking about an extreme event and often when you're when you're writing in extremism it's called extreme form sometimes lets you down form sometimes just isn't the right thing to be using and free verse is often what a lot of confessional writers use it's worth bearing in mind that now from my point of view i think there's a kind of # something that you can attempt writers such as <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> who are what you'd call confessional poets writing about extreme events doo-, doomed affairs for instance suicide # depression often write in free verse they're pioneers of free verse but as i said to you two weeks ago there's no more to my mind confessional poem than say Dante's The Divine Comedy which is about a personal and real <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> to <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> in order to find his lost love Beatrice and yet that's written in total <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> now six centuries ago or eight centuries ago when Dante wrote that obviously people didn't write in free verse that wasn't the convention these days it is a convention that when you're writing in extremism you use free verse because of the success if you like of the confessional poets convinced a lot of people you might be a generation <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> you might be a generation that might want to think about whether form could once more be regenerated and used in extremism i think it's an interesting area you could go into it's one i'm trying to push the second year at the moment to so they're finding that if they're writing triple sixtiners (<gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>) about loss they have a lot more impact than say one page in free verse about loss okay my poetics my poetics my own poetics are things like # i think the the language of science and the <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> of science are terrifically important and as important is anything that could be discovered in philosophy or in the arts therefore my own poetry does have a lot of science in it # perception i think one needs to keep at all costs one's perceptions as clear as possible whether that perception is of another person or a political situation or a form for me like my own poetics perceptions is a key being clear being clear and not obscure is also one of my poetics other things more personal i think one should try to be in # in our life and all our lives are in many ways dishonest in various corners in your own poetry you should be utterly honest that's another one of my poetics and probably my last poetics and this is # i was born as a Romany and for me that identity as a Romany is important within my own poetics because i want to speak if you like on behalf of a lot of people who can't write or read but on the other hand i don't want that to obscure my own life entirely i need to you know look after myself too so i have a little struggle there but it's part of my poetics and i explore that a lot in my poetry your poetics <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> what do you think your poetics are or could be

</u><u who="sm5097"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> being honest with myself when i've written it and writing every day

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm-hmm that's very good yeah in fact let's just pass it around

</u><u who="sf5126"> # mine is respect 'cause # not just respect for myself but respect for other people and originality

</u><u who="nm5095"> two very good strong ones yeah

</u><u who="sf5126"> one of my efforts is not just to have published what the publisher likes <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> and also work that like means something to me <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah you know about that first one i think i may have touched upon that and # i'm certain that # writers like Jim <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> it's it's a real battle # it's a lot easier with poetry # and it gets harder as you get into literary fiction # as soon as you you cross the line a little bit in the land of say <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> and that first poetic that you got there gets battered and then if you step even further across then you just become a tool of the publisher and it's difficult to tell whether you're a writer or not

</u><u who="sf5126"> i kind of have <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> obviously as well and try and change the subject voice and person in my poems so i don't just keep writing like

</u><u who="nm5095"> interesting very interesting

</u><u who="sf5126"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> do you want to try do you want to attempt something like that now i might i might set an exercise in which you are to try write in in in persona and tell a story just to force you to have a have a go where i'd like you to choose your own persona i spent ? i spent an entire in the persona of <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> who was dead # for sixty years and obviously in order to inhabit that persona ? i did dreadful dreadful things such as # i i had i had no understanding what it what it would feel like for instance to lie in snow for two hours in the way that he'd been forced by by the K-G-B so i went i lay in snow for two hours to see how it felt

</u><u who="sf5126"> i don't know if i would do that

</u><u who="nm5095"> i mean people do try things out just to see how they feel <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> Maxwell a friend of mine who was who started the writing programme who was with me right at right at the beginning in nineteen-eighty-six # he was under the under the well he read somewhere that the best writing the best poetry got got written got written if you're in a state of mania # and starvation which is not true by the way it it it gets better when your when your belly is full actually so what he did is he starved himself for for # for four days and then he wrote and it was crap that he discovered # and by the way <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> also tells a tells tells a very interesting # story story too which i'm going to tell very quickly because it answers something that <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> and i were talking about during the break which is about one of the key differences between fiction and poetry poetry is a much harder harder genre in which to write well <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> wrote three books of poems # which are published by <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> Books he took a long time over the apprenticeship of these books and he got them right he then turned his hand to write his first novel Blue <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> which <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> and as he put it to me you should try it Dave it's a piece of piss took me it took me it took me six weeks it's just like it's just like taking it's just like taking the brakes off prose is prose is so much easier so much easier so bear that in mind when you're making decisions about genres i think you should try them all out firstly what are your poetics

</u><u who="sm5127"> # double edged and downsided perspective (coughing) in the poetry and clarity and # at the moment # language of belonging

</u><u who="nm5095"> could you say say more about that

</u><u who="sm5127"> # i'm very interested well i'm kind of struggling with the idea of sort of being belonging in sort of all sorts of different # institutions or # just as yourself or why we're doing this and the reasoning behind things i'm very interested in and # i think that will come out quite strongly in poems

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah

</u><u who="sm5127"> alright

</u><u who="nm5095"> very interesting you can see why all these people are on this course it's a bit like the interview you see i was talking about that again with one of the things that that unites all of you whether you believe this or not is that # you will kind of identify just having a certain condition a certain kind of writerly condition it's very unacademic it's very writerly however which is # sometimes may seem like a certain uncertainty about your own writing # that's a very important quality to have because everyone sort of has that whether they're Doris Lessing or <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> Mandelstein or or you now ask her tonight

</u><u who="sm5127"> i want to try and keep a strong social perspective

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm-hmm

</u><u who="sm5127"> in my own writing and also to be as as personal as i possibly can in different situations

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm-hmm well make sure you hold on to that

</u><u who="sm5127"> yeah

</u><u who="nm5095"> okay <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sf5128"> # freedom not just in writing but not having to conform to not having to conform to things that's what <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> do and allowing myself not to know where i want to take a piece of work just letting it letting it take itself somewhere

</u><u who="nm5095"> yes make it give it its own life i mean you have to give it the kiss of life first with your own imagination you just have to swing it onto its own legs one of the things that i i i've got to stand up tonight in front of two-hundred-and-fifty people to make a speech about Doris and i was writing this last night and i was discovering on the internet all sorts of amazing things about her life # such as # she i actually cut them out of the speech because they were too personal but one of the things that that she did she went through two marriages and she actually gave up the marriages because she didn't she found herself kind of being condemned to a particular persona being sucked into a particular persona that's going to eventually rob her of her own identity as a writer and she said that being a writer of the sort that she is had made her a freer person it actually freed her and that she regards herself as a free human being they're very rare by the way free humans and writers <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> are usually quite free human beings and that that freedom # not to conform is not just about about conforming conforming within your own writing it might actually be about conforming within society too but let's not press that button too hard at the moment okay

</u><u who="sm5129"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> it's like you can write something that people read then and understand with their ears and not their mind because you know you can write a sentence and then somebody reads it and just reads it for the meaning of the sentence you can just write something that meant totally nothing but somebody will read and just understand it with his heart if you

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah yeah fascinating # idea too of course what you want is at the same time <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sf5130"> # ideology is very important to me i mean i should the readership should be able to understand what # my ideology is what i'm feeling and also free verse i mean i hate conforming to form i just want everything unrestricted and everything has to fit together i mean when i finish it it has to be appeals to me it doesn't matter if it doesn't appeal to anyone else but i have to be happy with it and

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah excellent now hold on to those yeah

</u><u who="sm5131"> # <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> rather than sort of just sitting down and thinking that i would be writing # being prepared to experiment with form even if i don't stick myself with them in the end

</u><u who="nm5095"> true

</u><u who="sm5127"> and being prepared to # <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> out things more rather than just # giving up you know

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah yes that means cutting it in into tiny little pieces and and reassemble it from like like a <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> fine good again stick stick with these things <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sf5132"> productivity in a way causing i think it's quite important # either in a personal <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> to a reader or a political outlook in society and also i think on a wide perspective of experience and learning from everything that happens to me in

</u><u who="nm5095"> yes yeah how are you how are you going to go about acquiring that wide perspective

</u><u who="sf5132"> # expose myself to a lot of different experiences different people and different arts and everything else

</u><u who="nm5095"> yes very <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> yeah

</u><u who="sf5132"> # yeah clarity of perception and expression and i don't know there's like a lot in the world that can bring you away from yourself and if you're writing it writing for me is a way of kind of coming back to just being with myself and exploring things more deeply

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm-hmm nobody's nobody's mentioned emotions really i've noticed but yeah it gets close to emotional truth

</u><u who="sf5132"> # i'll stay keeping my own voice retaining my own voice wherever i am and # knowing my own values and strengths and what i want

</u><u who="nm5095"> mhm very good you should talk to <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> that's that's part of her part it's not and <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>'s too actually

</u><u who="sm5133"> # i want to write clearly i want my writing to have an effect # and # i want it to speak to i want it to be able to speak to individuals i'm not particularly interested in the idea of speaking to social groups # as i don't necessarily see myself as as one as as part of one already # and so i'm just into that idea and putting my interests into writing # into my writing and the idea of of just movement of # of of of the self and if interests really

</u><u who="nm5095"> mhm very interesting very good pass around

</u><u who="sf5134"> # not getting up sort of caught up in # the same subject matter all the time finding new experiences and new <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> what sort of what sort of thing you think you might get caught up in

</u><u who="sf5134"> # <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> sort of and very sort of free verse #

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm-hmm that's one of the reasons why i give you things to write which you can't

</u><u who="sf5134"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> what would you like to be in twenty years with your poetics

</u><u who="sf5134"> i've no idea

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah

</u><u who="sf5134"> # always force people to think in a new way with what i've written # and make people look at something that i'm writing about in a way they've never considered it before

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm-hmm yeah # once again you should be reading this book with one of those things in mind what are these people's poetics i want to take it up to here this time and then down here what are your poetics please

</u><u who="sf5134"> # to transport and absorb and # sort of expressing something that everybody perceives in a way that's accessible and that they can understand it

</u><u who="nm5095"> mhm ambitious but good <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sf5135"> #

</u><u who="nm5095"> i kind of interviewed you i interviewed you on the basis of your poetics i think

</u><u who="sf5135"> yeah i was going to say # what the the the first word that comes to mind we talked about articulation # and because i tend to well i i mean i i don't feel i can control what i'm writing sometimes and my <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> get away and you know so articulation is and clarity

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah articulate energy that's a good book by the way articulate energy by Donald <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> you should read it

</u><u who="sm5136"> # voice and reinvention

</u><u who="nm5095"> voice and reinvention how do you get to choose that brevity

</u><u who="sm5136"> i'm not sure

</u><u who="nm5095"> how did you mean reinvention

</u><u who="sm5136"> # i tend to i have a tendency to to get stuck in the same writing the same sorts of things to stop myself doing that

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm-hmm how can this course how can this course help you to reinvent that and to to

</u><u who="sm5136"> well it's just it's just making me think a lot more and i'm not being lazy i'm not writing lazy which is what i get into really

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah i suppose that's something <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> we all need to be less lazy

</u><u who="sm5136"> and <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> takes it away from where it started of which is really good i like that bit

</u><u who="nm5095"> okay your poetics sir

</u><u who="sm5137"> # make sure i have respect for the subject i write about # hopefully

</u><u who="nm5095"> i'm very impressed by # all your poetics i'm also very impressed by the word respect turning up so often here too some do it some honour do something's that some honour

</u><u who="sm5137"> mm-hmm

</u><u who="nm5095"> that's very interesting do you mean celebrate things as well

</u><u who="sm5137"> yeah <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> or attack things purely because i can so to be true to the ideals

</u><u who="nm5095"> very interesting yeah hold hold those very hard no those are those are really #

exposed exposed po-, exposed poetics # a lot of people will try to take those of you sorry you'll be fine he'll be trained he'll be fine your poetics

</u><u who="sm5138"> to # to strive for clear vision and without # becoming stale # but always everything has to be totally personal and something that i believe in strongly and then to provoke a healthy cynicism and scepticism # of humanity and modern culture and be identifiable through that

</u><u who="nm5095"> would you also want to be providing some answers at the at the end of that too

</u><u who="sm5138"> i'll have to see about that

</u><u who="nm5095"> okay whatever you do okay <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sm5139"> # imagination it's a tool of limitless greater power so use it and in so doing fire at other people's # and to balance out self discipline be your greatest critic but also your

greatest fan # knowing if you go to far keep yourself in cheque but give yourself support

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm-hmm yeah fair enough # that's quite pedagogical actually isn't it wouldn't you say that's do you want to teach

</u><u who="sm5139"> # that's what i teach myself it's

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah what about other people

</u><u who="sm5139"> if they're if they're willing to listen then i i # well it's i don't know if it's proven that it seems to work for me if someone wants to take a leaf out of my book then good bless them and so be it okay

</u><u who="nm5095"> no it's not okay but we shall work upon that it's it's fine they're good they're good that's that i know that you're capable of something

</u><u who="sm5139"> yeah okay

</u><u who="sf5140"> # i'd like to try and preserve a slight sense of mystery about it i don't like to write something that's totally exposed you know because i think people should be able to seek something in it and try and find their own truth in whatever you've written rather than just say you know here's a can of Tango and describe iterm and

</u><u who="nm5095"> that's that's the workshop by the way

</u><u who="sf5140"> and and as a result of that i'd like the product to be something that that flows that # i would enjoy reading myself and i think that's that's how i decide whether it's good or not if i would enjoy reading it

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah yes i have i have to own up to you to to something here which is that # i i actually didn't read any any stuff really until i was fifteen years old and then i read ferociously as you know # i still do read f-, ferociously but # about two years ago having read pretty well much of the poetry that was on on offer certainly in # Europe and America and Australia # i became intensely dissatisfied with most of the poetry that i that i previously had liked and part of the reason was that thing about the mystery i wasn't being challenged any more by it and that's one of the reasons why i now # read things which are kind of allied to poetry # like mathematics almost as though they're a kind of poetry or people like Dante because i want to be challenged again by the # initial mystery that i really enjoyed when i was say fifteen sixteen when i first encountered poems which is <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> so i'm hoping through the writing programme by the way to to help you become the people who are going to challenge me as your reader i'm your <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> reader never forget that and i want to be surprised <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>

</u><u who="sm5141"> all right # i i don't like to be restricted in my poetry you see and i want to write what i want to write about and not be conform to like a certain kind of

</u><u who="nm5095"> good

</u><u who="sm5141"> form as such i'd rather do free verse and

</u><u who="nm5095"> what about what about restriction being liberation

</u><u who="sm5141"> restriction being progression in the sense of that

</u><u who="nm5095"> Igor Stravinsky # said restriction is is liberation restriction that that if you're given a a particular form in which in which to write whether you're a writer a composer or an artist or a film maker where there are conventions too # it actually is much more liberating than just being into your own devices

</u><u who="sm5141"> i'm willing to try that it's just i don't want to be i want to be my own individual as in rather than conform to certain ways

</u><u who="nm5095"> yeah

</u><u who="sm5141"> write how i want to write and most of it is like more emotional in the sense as about me as a person and more sort of philosophical ideas and

</u><u who="nm5095"> mm-hmm it's good it's good it's a good it's a good it's a good poetic the wider though the public though is the reason that i that i i give you and the writers that you're working with give you particular exercises which are restrictive is that is to help teach you and develop a facility that's that's the important thing a facility so that you can actually fulfil that poetic of of yours so that when the moment strikes you you'll be equipped to carry it out because otherwise you won't be you'll be you'll be basically splashing around not able to swim so i'm going to set you a final a final exercise which is to # <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> no let's # two there are two there are two exercises one one is # one one will make one of these exercises will make you hate my guts i'm afraid but everybody's done it and it's your turn in The New Poetry on page one-ninety there's a poem by Sean O'Brian Sean O'Brian it's called After the Fall you'll find it on page one-ninety of The New Poetry and # on page one-nine-three there's another poem by Sean O'Brian called Fiction and the Reading Public what's that funny noise

</u><u who="sm5097"> somebody whistling <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>

</u><u who="nm5095"> Fiction and the Reading Public i want you to memorise that poem that's the one that's going to make you hate me i want you to memorise that poem Fiction and the Reading Public you'll find that it's easy to memorise because it's in a very strong rhythm got it and with the After the Fall piece what i want you to do is is to do what he's done here which is find a poem in another language you can do this by all sorts of tricks by the way because there'll be translations available translate it or have it translated or just choose a book that's where it's already translated and copy it out and then write an imitation of it write an imitation of that poem write an imitation i want you to imitate it and turn it into your own poem find a poem in a foreign language find a translation of that poem imitate the translation make it into your own poem those are those are the four steps Sean O'Brian takes this poem here by <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> the nineteenth century French p-, poet and he updates it so it's now taking place in the early nineteen-nineties i'm sure if you read this poem you'll find phrases where it says like Mrs Selfridges Sock Shop and <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> this world is not Eastbourne it has no opinions Songs of Praise all sorts of things like this are mentioned in this poem that weren't actually in the <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> poem he's made it his own poem i want you to make your own poem out of something from another language because honeys that's actually what we do all the time when we're writing poetry thank you for your watch it's now twelve-thirty see you tonight Doris Lessing have lots of questions ready </u>

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