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<title>Medical Student Selection Procedure at the Warwick Medical School</title></titleStmt>

<publicationStmt><distributor>BASE and Oxford Text Archive</distributor>


<availability><p>The British Academic Spoken English (BASE) corpus was developed at the

Universities of Warwick and Reading, under the directorship of Hilary Nesi

(Centre for English Language Teacher Education, Warwick) and Paul Thompson

(Department of Applied Linguistics, Reading), with funding from BALEAP,

EURALEX, the British Academy and the Arts and Humanities Research Board. The

original recordings are held at the Universities of Warwick and Reading, and

at the Oxford Text Archive and may be consulted by bona fide researchers

upon written application to any of the holding bodies.

The BASE corpus is freely available to researchers who agree to the

following conditions:</p>

<p>1. The recordings and transcriptions should not be modified in any


<p>2. The recordings and transcriptions should be used for research purposes

only; they should not be reproduced in teaching materials</p>

<p>3. The recordings and transcriptions should not be reproduced in full for

a wider audience/readership, although researchers are free to quote short

passages of text (up to 200 running words from any given speech event)</p>

<p>4. The corpus developers should be informed of all presentations or

publications arising from analysis of the corpus</p><p>

Researchers should acknowledge their use of the corpus using the following

form of words:

The recordings and transcriptions used in this study come from the British

Academic Spoken English (BASE) corpus, which was developed at the

Universities of Warwick and Reading under the directorship of Hilary Nesi

(Warwick) and Paul Thompson (Reading). Corpus development was assisted by

funding from the Universities of Warwick and Reading, BALEAP, EURALEX, the

British Academy and the Arts and Humanities Research Board. </p></availability>




<recording dur="00:43:20" n="7556">


<respStmt><name>BASE team</name>



<langUsage><language id="en">English</language>



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<personGrp role="speakers" size="19"><p>number of speakers: 19</p></personGrp>





<item n="speechevent">Lecture</item>

<item n="acaddept">Medicine</item>

<item n="acaddiv">ls</item>

<item n="partlevel">Staff</item>

<item n="module">unknown</item>




<u who="nm0321"><kinesic desc="projector is on showing slide" iterated="n"/> i've been asked a question by one of my colleagues as to how we get to lunch when this session <pause dur="0.8"/> has ended obviously lunch is a very important event today <pause dur="0.4"/> <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="1"/> # <pause dur="1.0"/> should it be raining and hopefully it won't be raining it <pause dur="0.3"/> we would be able to # offer <pause dur="0.4"/> sort of minibus transport but the idea is that we'll <pause dur="0.4"/> walk # <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="1"/><pause dur="0.3"/> past the ducks <pause dur="0.6"/> near the lake and on towards the Arts Centre <pause dur="0.4"/> and myself and a few of my colleagues i'm sure will <pause dur="0.3"/> lead you in the direction to <pause dur="0.3"/> to Eat restaurant you'll certainly need to walk back because you'll need to <pause dur="0.4"/> walk off some of the <pause dur="0.2"/> excess lunch that you <pause dur="1.1"/> <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="2"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> have eaten </u><pause dur="0.6"/> <u who="nm0322" trans="pause"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="1"/><pause dur="0.8"/> </u><u who="nm0321" trans="pause"> now i'm going to <pause dur="0.2"/> introduce our <pause dur="0.2"/> next speaker <pause dur="0.3"/> # <gap reason="name" extent="2 words"/> has <pause dur="0.4"/> led into this session <pause dur="0.4"/> very nicely # posing questions about medical student selection <pause dur="0.5"/> and particularly in relation to <pause dur="0.5"/> attitudes and <pause dur="0.3"/> what part <pause dur="0.3"/>

that may <pause dur="0.3"/> play in the selection process <pause dur="0.5"/> my colleague Dr <gap reason="name" extent="2 words"/> is <pause dur="0.2"/> a lecturer <pause dur="0.4"/> here at the medical school in general practice and he's also <pause dur="0.4"/> a general practitioner <pause dur="0.5"/> in <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> <pause dur="0.4"/> and <pause dur="0.2"/> for this session Dr <gap reason="name" extent="2 words"/> has joined us as well who's the <pause dur="0.3"/> admissions tutor for the <pause dur="0.4"/> medical school <pause dur="0.3"/> here <pause dur="0.2"/> so <pause dur="0.4"/> i shall pass over to </u><u who="nm0323" trans="overlap"> okay <pause dur="0.4"/> thank you </u><u who="nm0321" trans="latching"> to <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="nm0323" trans="pause"> yeah thanks very much <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> the earlier session <pause dur="0.3"/> on attitudes of # <pause dur="0.4"/> medical students and # <pause dur="0.5"/> medical professionals <pause dur="0.4"/> is a important lead-in to this particular topic <pause dur="0.9"/> # i'm quite interested in this and # i've been looking into <pause dur="0.4"/> our selection procedure at <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> Medical School <pause dur="0.8"/> okay <pause dur="0.8"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> for the purpose of this presentation what i thought i would do is i'd look at current issues in the selection process <pause dur="0.3"/> which are <pause dur="0.2"/> in the literature at present time <pause dur="1.4"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> i will <pause dur="0.6"/> give you an overview <pause dur="0.3"/> of the selection process at <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> <pause dur="1.1"/> and then <pause dur="0.3"/> now that

will be about twenty slides so i'll be going fairly fast at that stage <pause dur="0.4"/> and most <trunc>os</trunc> most of us have been through the # selection process so we'll understand it fairly quickly <pause dur="1.2"/> and # <pause dur="1.5"/> in the third section i'll look at some possible areas of research <pause dur="1.4"/> in the <pause dur="0.2"/> selection procedure <pause dur="1.1"/> and also report on a statistical analysis we've done of the interviewer scores <pause dur="0.6"/> okay <pause dur="3.7"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> current issues in selection <pause dur="1.1"/> you may have come across wider access for underprivileged <pause dur="0.3"/> # educational and social background <pause dur="0.6"/> people <pause dur="1.6"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> then there's the personal qualities assessment <pause dur="1.2"/> and common admissions tests for all graduate entry courses <pause dur="0.5"/> which has really <trunc>b</trunc> # <pause dur="0.6"/> just been talked about but i thought it would be <pause dur="0.5"/> useful to bring it to <pause dur="0.2"/> your attention <pause dur="2.3"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> the underprivileged <pause dur="0.9"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> is quite contentious and problematic <pause dur="0.8"/> it is desirable but <pause dur="0.4"/> it's really addressing inequality with further inequality <pause dur="0.8"/> # but it's worth noting that

something like seventy per cent of medical students are from very <pause dur="0.2"/> privileged sort of backgrounds <pause dur="1.1"/> and the first university who <pause dur="0.6"/> # started looking at this area was Bristol around about two-thousand-and-one it was reported in the <pause dur="0.7"/> news items <pause dur="0.2"/> # they were giving something like two Bs and a C <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> gradings for <pause dur="0.5"/> entry into their medical course <pause dur="0.6"/> for <pause dur="0.8"/> pupils from <pause dur="0.6"/> inner city <pause dur="1.4"/> secondary schools and things like that or comprehensive schools <pause dur="1.5"/> and this year Saint George's # Hospital have # <pause dur="0.3"/> this sort of policy i don't know whether it's a general policy or whether they're just kind of looking at a certain percentage say ten per cent or fifteen per cent i'm not entirely sure <pause dur="0.5"/> but it was in the in the press that they are <pause dur="1.1"/> looking at it this year <pause dur="2.2"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> psychometric testing <pause dur="0.7"/> quite a lot of work currently going on <pause dur="0.8"/> it's quite prevalent and the origins are from U-S-A and Australia <pause dur="2.3"/> and basically it focuses on <pause dur="0.6"/> students who have empathic <pause dur="0.2"/> attitudes <pause dur="1.5"/> and

if you are looking at this area <pause dur="0.5"/> one wonders that <pause dur="0.2"/> perhaps you could give lower grade offers <pause dur="0.7"/> and <pause dur="0.2"/> Durham this year i i think Professor Hamilton <pause dur="0.8"/> is is reporting that he would look at <pause dur="1.1"/> look at students who have this sort of empathic attitude <pause dur="0.5"/> much more favourably and perhaps give lower grade offers <pause dur="1.1"/> and of course when you're looking at this area you begin to think whether <pause dur="0.5"/> it might be a useful <pause dur="0.3"/> tool <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> to look at low numbers to interview because it is very labour intensive <pause dur="0.8"/> # at <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> we had # five-hundred interviews <pause dur="0.4"/> and <trunc>i</trunc> <trunc>i</trunc> it is hard work <pause dur="2.0"/> the Scottish universities have got two <pause dur="0.2"/> cohorts of # five-hundred <pause dur="0.3"/> voluntary P-Q-A <pause dur="0.5"/> assessment <pause dur="0.9"/> # this is <pause dur="0.2"/> the the there are five universities involved <pause dur="0.8"/> and # <pause dur="1.5"/> there is # </u><u who="nm0324" trans="overlap"> sorry what's P-Q-A </u><pause dur="0.7"/> <u who="nm0323" trans="pause"> # P-Q-A <pause dur="0.2"/> personality # <pause dur="0.4"/> personal qualities assessment <pause dur="0.5"/> it's sort of attitudes really <pause dur="1.4"/> # they're they're looking at # five-hundred volunteers <pause dur="0.7"/> okay <pause dur="0.5"/> <trunc>h</trunc> who have taken this P-Q-A <pause dur="0.3"/> test <pause dur="1.1"/> and <pause dur="0.3"/> of

course <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.9"/> there is a long study which i'll describe in a minute <pause dur="0.5"/> and the areas of interest # <pause dur="0.5"/> primarily are <pause dur="0.6"/> problem solving <pause dur="0.2"/> capability <pause dur="0.2"/> and personality traits <pause dur="2.2"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> and this study which has yet to be # reported upon the preliminary <trunc>resu</trunc> results will be out say in the autumn time <pause dur="0.3"/> but <pause dur="0.8"/> the <trunc>prelim</trunc> preliminary results are already being talked about and that's where i come in <pause dur="0.5"/> there's a lady called Dr Lumsden from Glasgow University she's the admissions tutor i guess <pause dur="1.0"/> and they looked at two cohorts of # five-hundred students in two-thousand-and-two intake and the two-thousand-and-three intake <pause dur="0.8"/> and they're hoping to follow up these students <pause dur="0.3"/> # for up to ten years <pause dur="1.2"/> and this is to assess whether pre-admission psychometric scores can accurately predict <pause dur="0.4"/> their medical performance <pause dur="0.5"/> I-E <pause dur="0.2"/> the area they go into and how high <pause dur="0.3"/> they kind of rise in the ranks <pause dur="2.3"/> as i said the preliminary results will be reported later on this year <pause dur="0.8"/> but the

interesting remark was <pause dur="0.3"/> according to the testing they've done so far <pause dur="0.3"/> something like a hundred-and-twenty-eight <pause dur="0.5"/> out of the five-hundred-and-ten that's quite a <pause dur="0.4"/> high percentage <pause dur="0.6"/> # are judged to be unsuitable for a career in medicine <pause dur="7.5"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> actually just going back <pause dur="1.5"/><kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> the areas of interest <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> the P-Q-A test <pause dur="0.4"/> they did find <pause dur="0.6"/> # that the test was much more useful for problem solving capability <pause dur="0.3"/> than it was for personality traits <pause dur="0.6"/> but i ask you to bear in mind that these people <pause dur="0.9"/> are fairly intelligent but they have been chosen <pause dur="0.6"/> okay <pause dur="0.4"/> so they may <trunc>ha</trunc> already have the right sort of personality traits it's not kind of <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> # a whole population <pause dur="0.3"/> study <pause dur="0.2"/> it is very much focused on the people who've already been accepted <pause dur="4.8"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> the common admissions test <pause dur="0.2"/> # we have a graduate entry programme at # <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> <pause dur="0.5"/> and there is a proposal from Oxford for <pause dur="0.2"/> a common admissions test <pause dur="0.2"/> at the present time <pause dur="0.6"/> # i'm aware of

another workshop <pause dur="1.0"/> for for development of this common admissions test on fourth of July and i think this is towards the end of June and <gap reason="name" extent="2 words"/> has been invited to this <pause dur="1.1"/> essentially the workshop # is being held and they hope to agree on what core knowledge skills and values <pause dur="0.6"/> are important in medical students <pause dur="0.5"/> and they would obviously look at the quality issues and validity and reliability <pause dur="0.5"/> and they will monitor all of that <pause dur="0.5"/> and they're hoping to tender <pause dur="0.6"/> # to a test contractor <pause dur="0.9"/> and they're thinking of <pause dur="0.4"/> implementing this by two-thousand-and-five it's it's a tall order but i thought i'll bring it to your attention that <pause dur="0.3"/> these things are being talked about <pause dur="0.7"/> and what the rights and wrongs that may be <pause dur="2.4"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> okay <pause dur="1.2"/> now i'm going to really speed up # the selection procedure at <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> it's based on the Leicester model <pause dur="0.9"/> # this is the fourth year of selection <pause dur="0.6"/> we're going through <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> it's based on <pause dur="0.5"/> the best current evidence and advice that is

available <pause dur="0.9"/> and i make reference to <pause dur="0.3"/> the # <pause dur="0.9"/> the Committee of Heads of Medical Schools <pause dur="1.0"/> # Tomorrow's Doctors <pause dur="0.2"/> the General Medical Council i think <pause dur="0.4"/> fairly familiar with that <pause dur="0.5"/> and How To Do It # an article in the B-M-J by Powis <pause dur="0.6"/> and it was in nineteen-ninety-eight not nineteen-eighty-eight <pause dur="0.6"/> that's an error on my part <pause dur="1.7"/><kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> the heads of medical schools essentially <pause dur="0.5"/> say that the <pause dur="0.2"/> selection process must be transparent <pause dur="0.8"/> i mean that's <pause dur="0.8"/> political correctness and everything else and <pause dur="0.5"/> fairness too really <pause dur="1.5"/> # the process must identify core qualities <pause dur="0.2"/> those are both academic <pause dur="0.3"/> and personal <pause dur="2.0"/> and we're looking at # highest standards of personal conduct for obvious reason <pause dur="0.7"/> and it's # incumbent <pause dur="0.2"/> for for <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> potential students <pause dur="0.5"/> the applicants to disclose criminal records <pause dur="1.7"/> and equally <pause dur="0.3"/> primary <trunc>du</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> duty being to the patient they've got to disclose infectious diseases <pause dur="0.6"/> and any disability <pause dur="0.7"/> now this does not bar them <pause dur="0.3"/> from entry into medical school but <pause dur="1.2"/> there is a panel which assesses what sort of disability and

whether they would be suitable for <pause dur="0.4"/> a medical career <pause dur="1.3"/> and i think the same would apply what sort of criminal record there is <pause dur="0.2"/> but it is incumbent for them to <pause dur="0.2"/> disclose that <pause dur="1.7"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> the entry criteria as i said academic ability and a suitable personality <pause dur="1.7"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> and the selection process involves # written application through UCAS i'm sure you remember <pause dur="0.2"/> and <pause dur="0.2"/> nowadays <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> it involves a <pause dur="0.2"/> personal statement <pause dur="0.8"/> # there's a competitive interview <pause dur="0.4"/> finally it's an admission tutor's decision <pause dur="0.5"/> whether they are offered a place or <pause dur="0.3"/> rejected <pause dur="1.6"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> # the written application <pause dur="0.4"/> again <pause dur="0.2"/> looking at academic ability <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> from biological sciences we don't have any arts students or engineering students here <pause dur="0.8"/> # we're looking at two-one upwards <pause dur="1.1"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> supportive referee is <pause dur="0.2"/> important <pause dur="1.2"/> and some personal qualities <pause dur="0.6"/> and a strong bias towards works experience in the medical profession <pause dur="0.4"/> and

i'll come to that a little bit further on <pause dur="1.7"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> what do we mean by personality <vocal desc="laugh" iterated="n"/><pause dur="0.9"/> communication skills and <pause dur="0.2"/> empathy with patients are very important <pause dur="1.2"/> # settled and demonstrable <pause dur="0.3"/> motivation <pause dur="0.5"/> to the profession <pause dur="0.8"/> and a suitable personality which is kind of an overall assessment for the practice of medicine <pause dur="3.0"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> and we judge these <pause dur="0.5"/> through a referee's report <pause dur="1.0"/> and the written material which they provide <pause dur="0.7"/> i'll come on to that in a minute <pause dur="0.4"/> and of course the interview <pause dur="1.2"/> and it's <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>not <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/>an exact science <pause dur="0.2"/> i think everybody admits that <pause dur="1.0"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> # we give them a supplementary <pause dur="0.3"/> # application form <pause dur="0.3"/> which allows them to <pause dur="0.6"/> expand <pause dur="0.4"/> # on their personal statement in a very structured way <pause dur="0.5"/> and i'm going to quickly run through the the the huge number of questions about ten of them we we ask why do they want to do medicine <pause dur="0.4"/> what sort of <trunc>recrecationa</trunc> recreational activities

they might be involved with <pause dur="0.9"/> some sort of insight into medicine what's kind of important # ethical issues <pause dur="0.6"/> for the <pause dur="0.4"/> current <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> sort of times <pause dur="1.0"/> # works experience <pause dur="1.3"/> we're looking at patient centred <pause dur="0.5"/> # explicit dates and details because somebody can go there for an afternoon versus you know <pause dur="0.5"/> a very close <pause dur="0.2"/> observational and <pause dur="0.2"/> active role <pause dur="0.6"/> in a hospice say <pause dur="0.8"/> and <pause dur="0.4"/> more importantly what did they learn <pause dur="0.2"/> from this <pause dur="0.7"/> and how do they feel about it <pause dur="1.0"/> # <pause dur="0.9"/> more importantly for <gap reason="name" extent="2 words"/> this one is to describe their degree course because you can then assess whether that is suitable for <pause dur="0.7"/> # for for our intake <pause dur="0.2"/> or not <pause dur="0.5"/> and i know for a fact that he goes to great lengths trying to find out you know what the <pause dur="0.2"/> structure of the <trunc>c</trunc> degree course is at various universities to make a <pause dur="0.5"/> more informed decision <pause dur="1.6"/> and this all of this helps to decide who interview <pause dur="0.9"/> and also <pause dur="0.2"/> how we structure the interview <pause dur="1.4"/> and <pause dur="0.5"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> i'll come

to that in a minute <pause dur="1.6"/> the assessment of the written application is done by a pair of course <pause dur="0.2"/> selectors <pause dur="0.8"/> # up till this year it used to be two people <pause dur="0.2"/> now there are <pause dur="0.3"/> two pairs involved <pause dur="1.0"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> if there is a discrepancy <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> because they give a numerical score <pause dur="0.6"/> # then an adjudicator comes in to decide whether they interview or not <pause dur="0.8"/> # so far # i mean <pause dur="0.6"/> we only had # one pair now we've got two pairs there's fairly good concordance at the present and i'll put a question mark this is something we will be <pause dur="0.4"/> looking at and seeing how it sort of evolves <pause dur="2.1"/> and # something in italics i thought well it's interesting # if you could # <pause dur="0.2"/> look at the concordance between the <pause dur="0.2"/> # the the <pause dur="0.2"/> # numerical scores from the written application <pause dur="0.5"/> and the interview score and if they concord very well one wonders whether we need to interview at all maybe that's just a <pause dur="0.7"/> question <pause dur="0.2"/> <vocal desc="laugh" iterated="n"/> <pause dur="1.5"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> why interview <pause dur="1.0"/> historically it's always been # the

selection was on academic grounds <pause dur="1.1"/> and it was really to reject the seriously unsuitable <pause dur="0.9"/> and of course there's a lot of literature and a lot of commentary <pause dur="0.2"/> that # <pause dur="0.3"/> # academic performance is not <pause dur="0.2"/> necessarily a good predictor of the personal qualities that we're looking for and those mentioned in the <pause dur="0.6"/> # document Tomorrow's Doctors <pause dur="0.7"/> okay <pause dur="3.6"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> the interviewers <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="1.3"/> i did this presentation only two days ago and <pause dur="0.2"/> one comment was well the interviewers they must <pause dur="0.4"/> have certain sort of <pause dur="0.3"/> biases and that sort of thing maybe they should also <trunc>sa</trunc> <pause dur="0.4"/> some sort of <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>psychometric testing <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.6"/> so <pause dur="0.4"/> # that's an interesting comment <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> last year <pause dur="1.0"/> we had # <pause dur="0.3"/> two training sessions one was a workshop <pause dur="0.7"/> and then we had a training session looking at # simulated # <pause dur="0.3"/> interviews <pause dur="0.7"/> and the aim was to really calibrate numerical scores how to assess the students and # <pause dur="0.2"/> the whole process <pause dur="0.6"/> # last

year we had forty-two interviews <pause dur="0.7"/> # mainly academic staff clinical staff <pause dur="0.2"/> and some medical students <pause dur="0.9"/> and i think <pause dur="0.2"/> the future we may be looking at some lay interviewers <pause dur="0.7"/> not completely lay <pause dur="0.3"/> sort of thinking like maybe social workers maybe nurses and that sort of thing with appropriate training <pause dur="0.6"/> and how that would work out and pan out we don't know this is just a proposal at this stage <pause dur="3.4"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> we have two interviewers <pause dur="0.6"/> we try to mix the clinical and the academic <pause dur="0.7"/> # it lasts twenty minutes <pause dur="1.4"/> we're not supposed to give any indication to the student how well they've done <pause dur="1.2"/> they might go with the false idea that they've got in and they may not have and could cause problems <pause dur="1.0"/> and we give independent numerical scores <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> they're on three <pause dur="0.3"/> three three # levels <pause dur="0.2"/> and i'll come to that in a minute <pause dur="0.6"/> but it's important for the <pause dur="0.2"/> interviewers <pause dur="0.3"/> to write down comments <pause dur="0.6"/> of what their base <pause dur="0.6"/> their their scores are <pause dur="0.6"/> so that if there's comeback they're able to

actually say why <pause dur="0.5"/> they did well or did not do well <pause dur="0.3"/> i guess it'll <pause dur="0.6"/> be the people who are rejected who might come back so <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> it's important that we do that <pause dur="1.1"/> this is just a process <pause dur="0.4"/> now <pause dur="0.6"/> <trunc>w</trunc> <pause dur="0.5"/> we we we the the the two interviewers have a game plan <pause dur="0.6"/> and # <pause dur="1.0"/> one goes out <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> gets the # candidate tries to make them relax <pause dur="0.7"/> the usual introductions you know <pause dur="0.3"/> have you had a decent journey that sort of thing <pause dur="1.3"/> and in <trunc>cer</trunc> essentially we pick up on topics <pause dur="0.5"/> and we try and judge <pause dur="0.8"/> all the qualities that we're supposed to be judging <pause dur="0.2"/> through a discussion of topics related to medicine <pause dur="0.9"/> it's not an academic test and that that's an <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> important consideration <pause dur="1.2"/> # <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> Medical School has no set questions <pause dur="0.3"/> however all the interviews do have ready prepared questions that we use <pause dur="1.2"/> and of course the <pause dur="0.2"/> S-F-A which is the # supplementary application form with all the details <pause dur="0.2"/> we use <pause dur="0.2"/> some of the material <pause dur="1.1"/> and we ask questions <pause dur="0.2"/> from that <pause dur="3.0"/>

and like i said you need some sort of game plan as to who's going first and what sort of things they might be asking so that # <pause dur="1.2"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> you're not <pause dur="0.2"/> repeating yourself <pause dur="0.6"/> the criterion to be judged by are communication skills motivation to do medicine and general suitability <pause dur="1.1"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> and this is what we <pause dur="0.2"/> mean by communication skills <pause dur="2.6"/> it really comes out as a by-product it's not something <pause dur="0.2"/> you directly ask <pause dur="0.6"/> we're really looking at <pause dur="0.2"/> good presentation <pause dur="0.6"/> and <pause dur="0.5"/> issues about being good listeners <pause dur="0.8"/> and their ability to develop discussion <pause dur="2.0"/> and so forth <pause dur="1.0"/> # we talk about non-verbal communication again it's the way they sit it's the way they come across the way they relate to you <pause dur="0.2"/> it's all important <pause dur="3.0"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> motivation for medicine <pause dur="0.5"/> obviously important <pause dur="0.5"/> # we're we expect the <trunc>s</trunc> <pause dur="0.4"/> candidates to have some <pause dur="0.6"/> idea what the curriculum is <pause dur="0.4"/> and one of the <pause dur="0.2"/> questions asked is <pause dur="0.6"/> what do you

think about the sociology modules which are <pause dur="1.0"/> which are <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> taught very early on in the course <pause dur="0.4"/> and that is usually a good discussion point <pause dur="0.9"/> realistic # commitment to a career in medicine <pause dur="1.4"/> appreciate the challenge <pause dur="2.5"/> a knowledge of career structures <pause dur="0.2"/> you know sort of houseman <pause dur="0.4"/> S-H-Os <pause dur="0.2"/> registrar grades and that sort of thing <pause dur="2.9"/> and awareness of current issues in medicine and the sort of things that <pause dur="0.2"/> come up is # if you were the # <pause dur="0.8"/> Minister of Health you know <pause dur="0.6"/> how would you do his job differently and why <pause dur="2.1"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> general suitability <pause dur="0.3"/> we're looking for determination perseverance tenacity <pause dur="3.1"/> and have an interest in other people and how their decisions may affect other people <pause dur="1.2"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> ability to manage stress <pause dur="0.5"/> and look for advice <pause dur="1.1"/> and also this feeling that they <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>can share <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.4"/> difficult <pause dur="0.2"/> problems with other people <pause dur="1.1"/> okay <pause dur="1.5"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> # the decision <pause dur="0.7"/> well <pause dur="0.3"/> if they <pause dur="0.2"/> they've already passed the written application assessment <pause dur="0.4"/> so if they get

high scores like twenty-nine thirty <pause dur="0.6"/> # we score one <pause dur="0.4"/> to five <pause dur="0.3"/> in the three categories <pause dur="0.4"/> so if they get twenty-nine thirty they're likely to get an immediate offer <pause dur="0.9"/> if their scores are low <pause dur="0.3"/> round the twenty-five they'll probably get a <trunc>r</trunc> <pause dur="0.7"/> rejection immediately <pause dur="1.0"/> and the ones in between going to <pause dur="0.3"/> the hold list <pause dur="0.5"/> which is dependent on <pause dur="0.5"/> just how the interviews are going how the other people are <pause dur="0.2"/> responding <pause dur="0.2"/> because if we select <pause dur="0.2"/> a candidate <pause dur="0.3"/> they may reject us of course <pause dur="1.2"/> so that's all important and finally to aim at a precise figure <pause dur="2.2"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> rejected candidates have a right to know why <pause dur="1.0"/> the admission tutor gives written feedback on request <pause dur="0.4"/> and if they've fallen down on communication skills and things like that <pause dur="0.4"/> they can be encouraged to <pause dur="0.2"/> apply again <pause dur="1.5"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> do we get it right <pause dur="0.9"/> i guess we need to know # have some knowledge what happens to the people we reject <pause dur="0.3"/> if they get accepted on other courses

maybe they're <pause dur="0.4"/> really are good candidates and we're not picking them up <pause dur="0.9"/> # feedback from those who reject <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> <pause dur="0.3"/> i know that that some questionnaire has been sent but i haven't got enough # <pause dur="0.3"/> information on that as yet <pause dur="0.7"/> we would look at <pause dur="0.2"/> the dropout rate <pause dur="0.4"/> and the failure rate in subsequent sort of years <pause dur="1.5"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> the research question <pause dur="0.6"/> i pose is that <pause dur="0.9"/> there are two interviewers <pause dur="0.8"/> how well do we assess the candidate <pause dur="0.3"/> and what's the level of concordance between the two interviewer <pause dur="0.2"/> scores <pause dur="1.4"/> obviously that would need some sort of regression <pause dur="0.6"/> # data analysis <pause dur="0.8"/> what level of concordance would be acceptable <pause dur="0.9"/> and we really tried focusing on sort of further training of interviewers <pause dur="0.2"/> in terms of how to pose the questions <pause dur="0.7"/> and <pause dur="0.2"/> that sort of thing <pause dur="2.0"/><kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> i think most people are <pause dur="0.2"/> pretty impressed with the way they pose questions in the orals for the M-R-C-G-P examination they use five minute time slots <pause dur="0.5"/> and they usually flag up the theme first <pause dur="0.9"/> and <pause dur="0.4"/> then

follow it up with the specific question <pause dur="0.2"/> all the usual things open questions first <pause dur="1.1"/> set the scenario <pause dur="0.8"/> and then follow up with discussion <pause dur="0.3"/> and then you close it up with closed questions and may actually say <pause dur="0.3"/> what would you do in that situation <pause dur="0.6"/> and you know get them to sort of commit themselves <pause dur="1.4"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> this sort of <pause dur="0.3"/> approach may be seen as problematic by some people <pause dur="0.2"/> I-E if you have a theme to discuss and an area to discuss <pause dur="0.3"/> and if this candidate does freeze <pause dur="0.3"/> well do you stick with that same game plan <pause dur="1.3"/> it's open to discussion at the present time <pause dur="1.6"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> if we do do this sort of training i guess we could follow it up with some qualitative interviews of the selectors has it improved their technique do they feel more comfortable <pause dur="0.2"/> do they think the outcomes are better <pause dur="0.7"/> we could do a further analysis of the concordance factor <pause dur="1.2"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> okay <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> now this is interesting <pause dur="0.5"/> we did look at # <pause dur="0.3"/> at the the statistical analysis of # <pause dur="0.5"/> nine

interviewers <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> these are <pause dur="0.2"/> nine interviewers who've done the majority <pause dur="0.3"/> of the interviews they've done more than twenty each <pause dur="0.3"/> and it's only meaningful if they've done <pause dur="0.2"/> a lot of interviews <pause dur="0.9"/> so it is it's only applicable to those <pause dur="1.4"/> <kinesic desc="turns on overhead projector showing transparency" iterated="n"/><kinesic desc="indicates point on transparency" iterated="n"/> here are the anonymous interviewers here <pause dur="1.3"/> <kinesic desc="indicates point on transparency" iterated="n"/> these are the number of interviews they actually did <pause dur="1.3"/> and <kinesic desc="indicates point on transparency" iterated="n"/> this is their mean scores <pause dur="2.1"/> and <kinesic desc="indicates point on transparency" iterated="n"/> this is the standard deviation of their scores <pause dur="1.6"/> now using this particular test called Kruskal-Wallis <pause dur="1.3"/> test <pause dur="0.8"/> you're able to compare the scores of A <pause dur="0.6"/> independently with B C D <pause dur="0.7"/> and so forth <pause dur="1.5"/> and if the difference <pause dur="0.3"/> is significant <pause dur="0.4"/> and for three of them <pause dur="0.5"/> it came <pause dur="0.3"/> as significant <pause dur="0.7"/> from that <pause dur="2.1"/> we identified # three significant outliers <pause dur="0.2"/> of which we two <pause dur="0.2"/> # identify two doves and one hawk <pause dur="0.6"/> so <pause dur="1.9"/> it's a bit of advice from the admissions tutor to them say if they're in any doubt <pause dur="0.6"/> the the the hawk might <pause dur="0.6"/> up the mark <pause dur="0.4"/> and the doves might sort of lower the mark <pause dur="0.9"/>

okay i've covered a lot of things here <pause dur="0.3"/> and i'm open to <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>questions <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/> and <pause dur="0.2"/> to back me up <gap reason="name" extent="2 words"/> will join in as well <pause dur="0.4"/> thank you </u><gap reason="break in recording" extent="uncertain"/> <u who="nm0321" trans="pause"> <trunc>a</trunc> <trunc>an</trunc> any questions for for for <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> or the the admissions tutor </u><pause dur="2.0"/> <u who="nm0325" trans="pause"> as a as a non-medical person here <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> what what <pause dur="0.6"/> information would you expect to get from the psychometric test <unclear>you prefer to have</unclear> <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> probably a silly thing to say but <pause dur="0.2"/> because they're graduates do you expect a more <pause dur="0.4"/> mature <pause dur="0.6"/> personable mature attitude <pause dur="1.1"/> than you would if they were coming in at an undergraduate level </u><pause dur="2.3"/> <u who="nm0323" trans="pause"> right <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="1.4"/> the the # <pause dur="0.6"/> there were two areas that <pause dur="0.2"/> primarily focused on <pause dur="0.3"/> okay <pause dur="0.6"/> # one was their ability <pause dur="0.3"/> to problem solve <pause dur="0.6"/> okay <pause dur="1.5"/> from that they did find a <pause dur="0.4"/> good range <pause dur="0.8"/> and <pause dur="0.7"/> the deduction was there was a number who weren't good problem solvers <pause dur="1.6"/> and equally with the personality traits but i did point

out # <trunc>w</trunc> with the personality traits the attitudes <pause dur="0.7"/> # we had a discussion earlier on <pause dur="0.5"/> they may <pause dur="0.5"/> know how to answer the questions <pause dur="0.3"/> so it may not be an honest response <pause dur="1.2"/> and the other thing is they're already a selected group <pause dur="0.7"/> okay they've already <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>been <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.5"/> admitted <pause dur="0.5"/> so in a way you would expect them to have the right sort of attitudes <pause dur="0.9"/> but if they were given to sixth-formers <pause dur="0.5"/> a thousand sixth-formers say <pause dur="1.0"/> then it might <pause dur="0.2"/> actually help you to discriminate <pause dur="1.7"/> who would be more suitable <pause dur="0.2"/> for the interview stage </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nm0326" trans="pause"> # can i jump in about the P-Q-A 'cause there's a whole <vocal desc="clears throat" iterated="n"/> bundle of P-Q-A tests out in that <unclear>run</unclear> as you probably know <pause dur="0.5"/> the one that's <pause dur="0.2"/> being used this summer <pause dur="0.4"/> that i know about <vocal desc="clears throat" iterated="n"/> was used by Queen Mary <pause dur="0.4"/> University London <pause dur="0.2"/> Bart's and the London Hospital <pause dur="0.7"/><vocal desc="clears throat" iterated="n"/> it's <trunc>personal</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> personality <pause dur="0.3"/> personal qualities assessment test is basically <pause dur="0.3"/> aimed at trying to discover whether the candidate <pause dur="0.3"/>

has the right abilities of empathy and things like that <pause dur="0.4"/> and the point of the test really is to exclude those <pause dur="0.4"/> who do not have <pause dur="0.3"/> # these suitable traits for medicine rather than to rank order them <pause dur="0.5"/> so it's a useful thing to get rid of those with two heads <pause dur="0.3"/> but it's not a useful thing to decide those who we should call to interview </u><u who="nm0323" trans="overlap"> that's right </u><pause dur="0.7"/> <u who="nm0326" trans="pause"> # <pause dur="0.2"/> the i have actually looked at that test <pause dur="0.5"/> # and the way the sort of questions it formulates really aren't <pause dur="0.6"/> so much problem solving and as indeed personality testing <pause dur="0.4"/> the sorts of questions that you that that they pose a scenario <pause dur="0.3"/> scenario i remember <pause dur="0.4"/> is that you are a a man with a relatively modest salary <trunc>u</trunc> <trunc>r</trunc> living and working in a country where there's no National Health Service <pause dur="0.4"/> and your wife is seriously ill <pause dur="0.2"/> and you need so many thousand dollars in order to buy the treatment you haven't got that money but you have the opportunity to embezzle it from your firm <pause dur="0.9"/> and then a whole string of questions are asked about that <pause dur="0.3"/> and

then the scenario is slightly changed <pause dur="0.4"/> # another string of questions is asked about it <pause dur="0.3"/> and they're actually quite subtle and quite interesting i <trunc>f</trunc> <pause dur="0.3"/> well <pause dur="0.2"/> there's no failing but i <trunc>f</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> rather feel i did dismally badly in it <pause dur="0.6"/> <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="1"/> # okay <pause dur="1.2"/> the point is <pause dur="0.3"/> with this you get you put <pause dur="0.2"/> if you think of a dot plot <pause dur="0.3"/> of personality characteristics <pause dur="0.3"/> you you will get <pause dur="0.2"/> a cluster of dots in the middle who are the people that you would regard as suitable <pause dur="0.3"/> and some guys on the periphery <pause dur="0.4"/> who would you you would regard as not suitable <pause dur="0.4"/> at Queen Mary's # they applied the test to i think a thousand candidates <pause dur="0.3"/> and excluded three-hundred-and-fifty-odd <pause dur="0.5"/> # on that basis <pause dur="0.4"/> now <pause dur="0.7"/> that might <pause dur="0.4"/> be a <trunc>f</trunc> a fine way of going about things if you're wanting to homogenize the profession and end up with a bundle of guys and gals who are <pause dur="0.2"/> right sort of touchy-feely <pause dur="0.4"/> sort of things <pause dur="0.3"/> but inevitably by taking that approach you run the risk of excluding those who are going to be <pause dur="0.3"/> excellent histopathologists <pause dur="1.0"/> and so one has

that sort of doubt about it <pause dur="1.5"/> there are other doubts<vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="1"/> the other doubts are that people can learn how to do these things <pause dur="0.3"/> and the experience in countries where this sort of testing has been used is that fairly fairly quickly <pause dur="0.4"/> there have sprung up private schools which will train you for a price how to pass that test <pause dur="1.0"/> and so on <pause dur="1.1"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> though the question was asked whether it gives us information we don't already know the answer is of <pause dur="0.5"/> course <pause dur="0.8"/> not really but it quantifies it and makes it transparent i mean if you spend enough time in interviewing and and getting people to write essays <pause dur="0.3"/> as they can for example in Oxford spend two or three days with candidates in Oxford don't they <pause dur="0.5"/> if you've got that sort of time available <pause dur="0.3"/> then i'm quite sure you can <trunc>f</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> do the same sorts of things as a P-Q-A test would do <pause dur="0.7"/> quite sure of it <pause dur="0.3"/> we can't don't have the time <pause dur="0.3"/> so there is an argument that <pause dur="0.2"/> to exclude the outliers if that's what you want to do you can

use P-Q-A testing but there's no need to do that <pause dur="0.8"/> it's not not for ranking <pause dur="0.4"/> you were also asking about something about <pause dur="0.3"/> whether we feel that graduates should be more mature indeed we do <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> # one of the things that <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> has mentioned is this issue about # work experience when we say work experience what we mean <pause dur="0.4"/> is that they should have got real hands-on some sort of caring experience hands-on working with people in some sort of fashion it doesn't have to be <pause dur="0.4"/> in a medical environment although that's obviously preferable <pause dur="0.8"/> thing about our <pause dur="0.3"/> candidates since they're in their early twenties <pause dur="0.3"/> we would have expected them to have got this sort of # experience of their own volition <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> to candidates that come from school that have done this they've been told to do it <pause dur="0.3"/> by their teachers <pause dur="0.4"/> okay <pause dur="0.2"/> so there is a difference and and that's how we <pause dur="0.2"/> how we look for this sort of more mature attitude <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> that's how we do that i think <pause dur="0.3"/> certainly graduates should be regarded as potentially well potentially <pause dur="0.3"/> more

than more mature than school leavers </u><pause dur="0.5"/> <u who="nm0325" trans="pause"> thank you </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nf0327" trans="pause"> can i just ask has anybody ever done P-Q-A on people coming out the other side of a medical degree 'cause i would say all of us <pause dur="0.4"/> when i went through it </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> yeah </u><u who="nf0327" trans="overlap"> changed a lot personalitywise </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> yes <pause dur="0.3"/> no not yet <pause dur="0.3"/> # well i don't know about <pause dur="0.2"/> Australia <pause dur="0.2"/> what you're saying is a comparative test </u><u who="nf0327" trans="overlap"> mm </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> to see how the personality changes over the five years of medical training <pause dur="0.3"/> i'm not aware i that that may be out there but i'm not aware of it <pause dur="0.6"/> the P-Q-A testing <pause dur="0.4"/> 'cause it's a fairly recent phenomenon of course the United States have been doing <pause dur="0.4"/> # all sorts of testing for medical school entry for years and years and years now but they're different kinds of tests they're not

really personality tests they're <pause dur="0.4"/> cognitive tests cognitive ability tests and reasoning tests that have been done there not so much <pause dur="0.4"/> i think we have to clearly distinguish between <pause dur="0.5"/> # the empathic <pause dur="1.0"/> dare i say it touchy-feely characteristics <pause dur="0.3"/> and the problem solving characteristics which are both equally important but separate <pause dur="0.9"/> and the the first kind the <trunc>empa</trunc> you know <pause dur="0.4"/> <trunc>empa</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> the touchy-feely stuff hasn't properly been <pause dur="0.3"/> got into yet </u><pause dur="1.4"/> <u who="nm0328" trans="pause"> can i just ask have the interviewing panel done them </u><pause dur="1.5"/> <u who="nm0326" trans="pause"> done what </u><u who="nm0328" trans="latching"> personality tests </u><u who="nm0329" trans="overlap"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> </u><pause dur="0.6"/> <u who="nm0326" trans="pause"> # </u><u who="nm0330" trans="latching"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/></u><u who="nm0328" trans="overlap"> can can i tell you why i'm asking the question </u><u who="nm0330" trans="overlap"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/></u><u who="nm0328" trans="overlap"> i'm asking the question because i think if you're measuring the empathy <pause dur="0.4"/> and <pause dur="0.2"/> you kind of need to do the test yourself so you can measure it </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap">

i do entirely agree you're absolutely right and i say i have sat it but i think i did dismally badly <unclear>to be honest</unclear> <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="1"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> but <pause dur="0.6"/> from a practical point of view it simply isn't possible # we we </u><u who="nm0328" trans="overlap"> yeah </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> have been faced with # <pause dur="0.3"/> vast numbers of candidates to interview to get an interviewing system up and running from scratch from nothing </u><pause dur="0.5"/> <u who="nm0328" trans="pause"> yeah </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> in a very short period of time <pause dur="0.3"/> in an ideal world <pause dur="0.4"/> # i would what i would want to do is <trunc>s</trunc> indeed select the interviewers <pause dur="0.4"/> and the criteria for selecting the interviewers are going to be <pause dur="0.4"/> difficult <pause dur="0.5"/> to decide upon <pause dur="0.5"/> # <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> did mention that we're thinking about taking some lay interviewers this this year <pause dur="0.4"/> # i shall probably start that off by looking for half a dozen people <pause dur="0.5"/> # and i shall ask them to provide C-Vs and references and i shall <trunc>int</trunc> we shall interview them <pause dur="1.4"/> and take it from there <pause dur="0.3"/> but i'm find it <trunc>diffi</trunc> well # i i i don't know if i would find it

difficult to ask # lecturers from the G-P unit here to go through that procedure <pause dur="0.6"/> # i i might find it fairly easy to ask them but whether they would find it easy to do it acceptable to do it i'm not sure <pause dur="0.7"/> # there is a an element of difficulty so if i <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/></u><u who="nm0328" trans="overlap"> yeah i just think it's an interesting question because it's a measure </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> yeah </u><u who="nm0328" trans="overlap"> against what what's happening for the students so the students are going through that process </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> yeah </u><u who="nm0328" trans="overlap"> and this test is saying </u><u who="nm0326" trans="latching"> yeah </u><u who="nm0328" trans="latching"> you can't you are clearly <trunc>am</trunc> empathic person </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> yes </u><pause dur="0.5"/> <u who="nm0328" trans="pause"> that may not meet with the interviewers' expectations </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="nm0328" trans="pause"> indeed <pause dur="0.2"/> indeed </u><u who="nm0328" trans="overlap">

and you and therefore </u><u who="nm0326" trans="latching"> i mean you have </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> <unclear>you've got issues running</unclear> the test haven't you </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> you have touched on a very serious issue which is training interviewers how do we train interviewers <pause dur="1.2"/> # and to be honest # i'm open to advice <pause dur="0.4"/> <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="sl" dur="1"/> <unclear>absolutely</unclear> </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nm0331" trans="overlap"> i don't know<pause dur="0.3"/> <vocal desc="laugh" iterated="n"/> </u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="nf0332" trans="pause"> i was wondering the same thing about communication skills because i think it's it's relatively easy relatively easy for any professional to make <pause dur="0.6"/> a judgement about how <pause dur="0.5"/> they felt about the candidate in front of them <pause dur="0.6"/> but and i think the training issue's really really key 'cause when you talk about communication skills a shared understanding what would of what <pause dur="0.6"/> level of communication skills can be expected from or are appropriate to a candidate will be helpful <pause dur="0.7"/> 'cause just from observing people i've got a theory that people tend to rate highly communication skills that are similar to their own <pause dur="0.5"/> which means that

an interviewer who <pause dur="0.3"/> whose own personal style is to be very professional sit up very straight </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> yeah </u><u who="nf0332" trans="overlap"> and behave in a <trunc>ver</trunc> in in a particular way <pause dur="0.5"/> would actively prefer a candidate doing the same <pause dur="0.8"/> a very expressive interviewer </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> well yes </u><u who="nf0332" trans="overlap"> might feel naturally drawn to a very expressive candidate </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> i i again i take your point # </u><u who="nf0332" trans="overlap"> i think the training's crucial i mean </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> training is and the the way we did <pause dur="0.3"/> <trunc>w</trunc> the way we trained # was we <pause dur="0.2"/> put up <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> # dummy interviews # and they're very good dummy interviews 'cause one <pause dur="0.2"/> candidate interviewed very badly and the other <trunc>candi</trunc> candidate these are actual students not candidates </u><u who="nf0332" trans="overlap"> yeah </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap">

obviously we couldn't do it with candidates <pause dur="0.6"/> # the one student interviewed very well and the other student interviewed rather badly <pause dur="0.6"/> # and we got the interviewer <pause dur="0.6"/> # interviewers we were training to score <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> all the various criteria we were interested in in the way we do in a standard interview <pause dur="0.3"/> and surprisingly <pause dur="0.4"/> the the <pause dur="0.2"/> they were quite tight scores <pause dur="0.4"/> # i should have brought along the data <pause dur="0.2"/> # which i'm going to accumulate over the coming years <pause dur="0.4"/> but in fact <pause dur="0.4"/> there was not much experience <pause dur="0.4"/> # and it looked as if <pause dur="0.4"/> # the interviewers were all doing much the same thing <pause dur="0.3"/> well now you can come back quite rightly and say well that's not at all surprising 'cause all these interviewers are the same people basically they're all <pause dur="0.4"/> medics <pause dur="0.5"/> middle-aged mostly white all of them European no not all of them <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> <pause dur="0.3"/> you can see what i mean a a rather homogeneous group of </u><u who="nf0332" trans="overlap"> yeah that's where your lay panel come in presumably which i think is a great idea </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap">

beg your pardon </u><u who="nf0332" trans="latching"> that's where you lay panel come in presumably it's well it's a great idea </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> well <pause dur="0.3"/> well yes <pause dur="0.2"/> there there are serious constraints upon on <pause dur="0.2"/> the whole business of interviewing and and that is resources <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> because <pause dur="0.3"/> i feel it's very important that it should be at least one medic <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>on the <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.2"/> interviewing <pause dur="0.5"/> panel without any question <pause dur="0.3"/> the other person <pause dur="0.2"/> we only have two i would prefer to have three <pause dur="0.3"/> the other person i feel should be non-medical <pause dur="0.4"/> but </u><u who="nf0332" trans="overlap"> yes </u><u who="nm0326" trans="latching"> i'm very broad-minded about what non-medical means you know i'm not i'm i'm a biochemist by training <pause dur="0.5"/> # but i've been so much associated with medicine so for such a long time i can't really call myself non-medical </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nf0332" trans="pause"> mm </u><u who="nm0326" trans="latching"> # but i know # # <pause dur="0.3"/> a J-P not a G-P a J-P <pause dur="0.5"/> whom i feel would make a very good interviewer <pause dur="0.5"/> # in this situation <pause dur="0.4"/> so i would like to <pause dur="0.2"/> have the variety in the interviewing panel <pause dur="0.3"/> to do what you what you suggested we do but in practice <pause dur="0.4"/>

i think i'm going to be strapped <pause dur="0.2"/> to two interviewers for ever </u><pause dur="0.8"/> <u who="nf0332" trans="pause"> i hope you get three 'cause it sounds a really good combination </u><u who="nm0333" trans="overlap"> it does it sounds brilliant </u><pause dur="1.3"/> <u who="nm0326" trans="pause"> yes <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="sl" dur="1"/></u><u who="nm0334" trans="latching"> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> can i ask # sorry <unclear>i'm chatting through</unclear> # how many of these students <pause dur="0.4"/> have had interviewing <pause dur="0.5"/> # done # practice before <pause dur="0.7"/> <unclear>like</unclear> for senior registrars and and junior doctors we <pause dur="0.5"/> they ask we train them up for interviewing <pause dur="0.3"/> i'm sure when they go for their <pause dur="0.3"/> interviews they do quite well <pause dur="0.6"/> do the # # schools provide them <pause dur="0.5"/> interviewing it's all very good when you look at their marks everything they do </u><u who="nm0326" trans="latching"> mm </u><u who="nm0334" trans="overlap"> # they've been selected in a particular <unclear>way</unclear> <pause dur="0.3"/> i'm sure if they've had training in interviewing <pause dur="0.3"/> and communication skills <pause dur="0.4"/> they'll come and perform better then <pause dur="0.4"/> and the second comment was so many # managerial and professional <pause dur="0.5"/> one i interviewed one <pause dur="0.4"/> this gentleman said i'm i'm i'm # from a labouring family <pause dur="0.4"/> and straight away made me empathic towards him </u><u who="nm0323" trans="overlap"> mm </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nm0334" trans="pause"> i i i actually <pause dur="0.4"/>

felt # he he was making a case <pause dur="0.5"/> # that he's coming from a poor family </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="nm0323" trans="pause"> sure </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="nm0334" trans="pause"> and and # it's such a small number <pause dur="0.5"/> are there and i think those people will make better doctors i think <pause dur="0.4"/> # # <trunc>a</trunc> and and i wonder whether you've got any comments whether we should give them <pause dur="0.4"/> a special # # # <pause dur="0.9"/> approach </u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="nm0323" trans="pause"> well the second part i think <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> will <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>answer the first part <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/># i will answer <pause dur="0.6"/> we don't have any real idea how much training they actually have had <pause dur="0.6"/> i know for the local schools # i am invited to do some interviews for them <pause dur="0.3"/> and some of the consultant colleagues there <pause dur="0.4"/> so yes they do get a lot of practice <pause dur="0.5"/> so this goes back to the age-old argument <pause dur="0.5"/> that if we're looking for certain personality traits or certain <trunc>ty</trunc> # way to interview we can train them <pause dur="0.5"/> but one could argue and that's just # a view that i hold i mean even attitudes can be taught <pause dur="1.0"/> but certainly communication skills can be taught i mean although there's a little argument over the attitudes but <pause dur="0.3"/>

they do shift <pause dur="0.4"/> in a way <pause dur="0.8"/> so if somebody <pause dur="0.2"/> has got bad communication skills at say point A <pause dur="1.5"/> if they go through Clinical Methods course the DISC course and all the the ones that's run by the Department of General Practice we improve all of those <pause dur="0.6"/> so they are <pause dur="0.2"/> we are able to teach them that <pause dur="0.5"/> so one wonders they whether that should actually be a bar or whether that's just a value judgement we make <pause dur="0.3"/> at a point in time <pause dur="0.4"/> and we've got to really <pause dur="0.2"/> give preference to the people who've already <pause dur="0.4"/> got these traits and the right sort of communication skills <pause dur="0.5"/> so we don't know what level of # <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> training they're being given </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="nm0326" trans="pause"> when when we have a group of candidates in for interview about thirty or so at a time <pause dur="0.4"/> i often ask them how many of you have been to competitive interview before <pause dur="0.6"/> # and it's <pause dur="0.2"/> about half have had some sort of experience of competitive interviewing <pause dur="0.5"/> have been competitively interviewed i should say <pause dur="0.3"/> the other half have not because these days <pause dur="0.4"/> # it's very rare <pause dur="0.2"/> for people to go into serious competitive

interviews in a university for example <pause dur="0.6"/> # in the Department of Biological Sciences <pause dur="0.4"/> # we wanted to attract them in we aren't <pause dur="0.2"/> trying to <pause dur="0.3"/> sort out <pause dur="0.2"/> sheep and goats <pause dur="0.5"/> <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="1"/> so i suspect that the answer is that those who have <pause dur="0.2"/> been to competitive interviews especially if they've got a middle class background and gone to private schools <pause dur="0.3"/> will have had some training <pause dur="0.8"/> a lot of our candidates <pause dur="0.3"/> have not been through that situation <pause dur="0.3"/> and i do not know how we can compensate for that i wish we could compensate for that <pause dur="0.3"/> i don't know how we can <pause dur="0.8"/> # but what i try <pause dur="0.2"/> try to do <pause dur="0.4"/> is if a guy has bounced and he asks me why <pause dur="0.5"/> # and he's <pause dur="0.3"/> done badly in the interview because of his <pause dur="0.3"/> # communication skills i make that very clear to him <pause dur="0.6"/> and i say if you want to do better <pause dur="0.3"/> you've got to do something about that get some practice and advice on how to how to <pause dur="0.5"/> how to # <pause dur="0.3"/> present yourself at an interview <pause dur="0.5"/> so the issue you bring up is very important <pause dur="0.5"/> sadly there's nothing we can do about it because we can

only judge <pause dur="0.6"/> what's in front of us at the time we can't <pause dur="0.3"/> we cannot judge potential there's no way no way we can we we can <pause dur="0.3"/> can imagine that we could <pause dur="0.3"/> so if a guy communicates badly at interview sadly <pause dur="0.3"/> that's it <pause dur="0.2"/> however good he might be <pause dur="0.4"/> <vocal desc="sniff" iterated="n"/> <pause dur="1.7"/> going to <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/> </u><u who="nf0335" trans="overlap"> <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/> </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> people ask </u><u who="nm0336" trans="overlap"> <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/> </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> but # <pause dur="0.3"/> sorry </u><u who="nm0336" trans="latching"> yeah sorry <pause dur="0.2"/> # # <pause dur="0.2"/> i mean just just extending on to that point i mean # # # looking at the # # the explanation of the process the the it's a twenty minute interview but ten minutes are used for paperwork <pause dur="0.8"/> and so effectively it's only ten minutes </u><u who="nm0326" trans="latching"> no no no </u><u who="nm0323" trans="overlap"> no that's additional </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> twenty minutes interview plus plus ten minutes </u><u who="nm0336" trans="latching"> oh okay </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> # the ten minutes is intended so that the interviewers can <pause dur="0.2"/> develop <pause dur="0.3"/> strategy for the interview <pause dur="0.3"/> and think about the assessment afterwards </u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="nm0336" trans="pause"> okay </u><pause dur="1.0"/> <u who="nm0326" trans="pause">

there are two possible <trunc>ap</trunc> <pause dur="0.5"/> there are two strategies for interview broadly speaking one is <pause dur="0.2"/> the situation where you <pause dur="0.3"/> the the interviewers go in completely cold without any background information <pause dur="0.3"/> and develop <pause dur="0.3"/> a <trunc>d</trunc> # # # a discourse with the candidate now that takes time 'cause you've got to explore <pause dur="0.2"/> and you ask the guy what his name is for example </u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="nm0336" trans="pause"> yeah </u><u who="nm0326" trans="latching"> the other approach is that you use prior information to structure the interview <pause dur="0.5"/> if you've got lots of time <pause dur="0.2"/> then the first is very good <pause dur="0.5"/> if you haven't got lots of time then you have to use prior information to decide how you're going to organize so the five minutes before the interview <pause dur="0.3"/> for the guys to do that </u><u who="nm0336" trans="latching"> yeah </u><pause dur="1.1"/> <u who="nm0326" trans="pause"> # so we have a chat you say i've noticed such and such and such from the papers i i will kick off by saying such and such why don't you follow up by such and such <pause dur="0.3"/> and that's how it goes <pause dur="0.5"/>

then after the interview we spend two or three minutes thinking about it and we <pause dur="0.2"/> put our scores down <pause dur="0.7"/> okay </u><u who="nm0336" trans="latching"> so so it lasts ten to twenty minutes so </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> twenty minutes </u><u who="nm0336" trans="overlap"> i i i was going to # <trunc>s</trunc> my point was you know is it <pause dur="0.2"/> <trunc>i</trunc> <trunc>i</trunc> is it # # # enough time for them to do interviews <pause dur="0.2"/> is fine <pause dur="0.3"/> and that's sufficient time for <pause dur="0.2"/> doing justice to the candidates </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> i have thought about this and i have talked to people about this # particularly i # <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> put up very quickly # the name D Powis P-O-W-I-S <pause dur="0.5"/> he is <pause dur="0.2"/> <vocal desc="clears throat" iterated="n"/> his background <trunc>i</trunc> he's English but he's moved to # # Newcastle <pause dur="0.3"/> in New South Wales some time ago <pause dur="0.4"/> he's dean of admissions there and he's been <pause dur="0.4"/> very much involved in development of interviewing techniques and so there's lots of stuff in the literature if you want to find it <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.9"/> he says that <pause dur="0.3"/> if you define <pause dur="0.6"/> the the personality traits you're actually looking for <pause dur="0.3"/> motivation <pause dur="0.4"/> suitability <pause dur="0.7"/> # ten

minutes <pause dur="0.3"/> in a properly organized interview you can make some <trunc>s</trunc> objective judgement on those traits <pause dur="0.4"/> he says one trait <pause dur="0.3"/> per ten minutes provided it's properly structured properly thought about and the interviewers are trained <pause dur="0.8"/> so <pause dur="0.2"/> in our twenty minutes we can look at two traits <pause dur="0.9"/> communication comes as a bonus you don't need to separately judge communication because if the guy can't answer your questions then he can't communicate <pause dur="0.6"/> so that comes as a bonus <pause dur="0.6"/> so given the limitations of resources # the way we thought about it i think <pause dur="0.6"/> it's practical and works </u><pause dur="1.1"/> <u who="nm0334" trans="pause"> you <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> one this social <trunc>cul</trunc> # racial thing about # # <trunc>i</trunc> in this # way </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nm0326" trans="pause"> sorry </u><u who="nm0334" trans="latching"> # # in people from ethnic backgrounds <pause dur="0.2"/> # have anybody looked at this <pause dur="0.4"/> <trunc>i</trunc> in terms </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/> </u><u who="nm0334" trans="overlap"> of communication skills </u><u who="nm0326" trans="latching"> i know <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> </u><u who="nm0334" trans="overlap"> are they at a disadvantage in terms of </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap">

well it's very early days you # <trunc>thi</trunc> this is <pause dur="0.5"/> <trunc>h</trunc> how many </u><u who="nm0334" trans="overlap"> okay </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> <unclear>samples</unclear> have we been through this is our of the cohort </u><u who="nm0323" trans="overlap"> four </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="nm0326" trans="pause"> four </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="nm0323" trans="pause"> four </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="nm0326" trans="pause"> four now you see it's not much </u><u who="nm0334" trans="latching"> the the students have been very empathic towards people from <pause dur="0.2"/> ethnic backgrounds </u><u who="nm0326" trans="latching"> mm </u><u who="nm0334" trans="overlap"> i i sometimes feel they're not performing well </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nm0326" trans="pause"> mm-hmm </u><u who="nm0334" trans="latching"> i ask the students they they tend to be very empathic towards <pause dur="0.6"/> Afro-Caribbean people and they give them # i notice they give a score <pause dur="0.7"/> that is even more better than my score sometimes </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> you shouldn't be looking at the scores <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="sl" dur="1"/></u><u who="nm0334" trans="latching"> when when we compare later on <trunc>s</trunc> it does <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="nm0326" dur="1"/> come through that they <pause dur="0.4"/> but i think this is important 'cause people who are come from deprived background who may be performing </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> yes </u><u who="nm0334" trans="overlap">

badly but they can become good doctors later on </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> possibly but how can we judge that i mean we can be empathic can be sympathetic i think is perhaps the right word in this </u><u who="nm0334" trans="overlap"> yeah </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> context <pause dur="0.4"/> to somebody who isn't speaking well because English isn't his first language or whatever <pause dur="0.4"/> but you know <pause dur="0.3"/> well this guy eventually has got to work with patients and if he can't communicate then <pause dur="0.6"/> # then he's not going to make a good doctor <pause dur="0.5"/> so we can only judge on the information we have at the time <pause dur="0.6"/> and as i say if somebody bounces and asks me and i say it's because you didn't communicate well well if he then fixes himself up properly and applies again <pause dur="0.2"/> you know and he <trunc>s</trunc> does better fine <pause dur="1.2"/> but i i can't i think we must not be we must be very careful to guard against being overly sympathetic </u><pause dur="2.7"/> <u who="nm0321" trans="pause"> can we just <pause dur="0.4"/> can we just have one more question i think <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> was going to <pause dur="0.5"/> ask a question </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="nm0337" trans="pause">

# well it's <pause dur="0.4"/> well it's partly a question and <pause dur="0.4"/> and <pause dur="0.3"/> partly an answer perhaps <vocal desc="sneeze" iterated="n" n="nm0326"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> <trunc>i</trunc> it seems </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> thank you <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" dur="1"/></u><u who="nm0337" trans="overlap"> thinking about it it <trunc>s</trunc> <pause dur="0.5"/> it seems that training people to be interviewers is very analagous to training <pause dur="0.2"/> medical students to have <pause dur="0.2"/> good consultation skills it's an element of interpersonal skills and then there is also an element of problem solving you have got to gather some data <pause dur="0.4"/> and you've got to analyse it and interpret it and possibly gather some more data <pause dur="0.6"/> so <pause dur="0.7"/> it <pause dur="0.3"/> i would have thought that the best training programme would be something that was modelled on how we train consultation skills i mean given that we come from medical schools we should be very good at that <pause dur="0.4"/> so i'd have thought that the the the training would use the similar <trunc>s</trunc> range of techniques <pause dur="0.3"/> # </u><u who="nm0326" trans="overlap"> # absolutely you you're you're right # actually <pause dur="0.6"/> i've only been involved with training <pause dur="0.9"/> once

so far <pause dur="0.3"/> previously the training was done from <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> <pause dur="0.7"/> # and it i i'm very keen that we should develop our training programme and this is precisely what <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> and i are are talking about right now is how we should develop the training process <pause dur="0.5"/> you you're very right to to separate the these two things about <pause dur="0.5"/> being able to communicate and being able to assess data you're absolutely right and that's a very sensible structure </u><pause dur="3.7"/> <u who="nm0321" trans="pause"> big thank you to <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> and <pause dur="0.7"/> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> for that session <pause dur="4.3"/> <kinesic desc="applause" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="4"/> i'm sure the conversations will continue <pause dur="0.4"/> over lunch <pause dur="0.4"/> # we will now lead you <pause dur="0.3"/> down to Eat <pause dur="0.2"/> at main campus <pause dur="0.3"/> could i just say anybody who is speaking from two o'clock onwards if we could get <pause dur="0.4"/> if they could get back here for one-fifty then we can <pause dur="0.4"/> load their disks for Powerpoint if that's okay <pause dur="0.5"/> otherwise we'll restart at at two o'clock <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> if you want <pause dur="0.7"/> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> at the back and myself will <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="1"/><pause dur="0.3"/> lead you lead you to lunch