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<?xml version="1.0"?>

<!DOCTYPE TEI.2 SYSTEM "base.dtd">




<title>Gathering and Responding to Student Feedback</title></titleStmt>

<publicationStmt><distributor>BASE and Oxford Text Archive</distributor>


<availability><p>The British Academic Spoken English (BASE) corpus was developed at the

Universities of Warwick and Reading, under the directorship of Hilary Nesi

(Centre for English Language Teacher Education, Warwick) and Paul Thompson

(Department of Applied Linguistics, Reading), with funding from BALEAP,

EURALEX, the British Academy and the Arts and Humanities Research Board. The

original recordings are held at the Universities of Warwick and Reading, and

at the Oxford Text Archive and may be consulted by bona fide researchers

upon written application to any of the holding bodies.

The BASE corpus is freely available to researchers who agree to the

following conditions:</p>

<p>1. The recordings and transcriptions should not be modified in any


<p>2. The recordings and transcriptions should be used for research purposes

only; they should not be reproduced in teaching materials</p>

<p>3. The recordings and transcriptions should not be reproduced in full for

a wider audience/readership, although researchers are free to quote short

passages of text (up to 200 running words from any given speech event)</p>

<p>4. The corpus developers should be informed of all presentations or

publications arising from analysis of the corpus</p><p>

Researchers should acknowledge their use of the corpus using the following

form of words:

The recordings and transcriptions used in this study come from the British

Academic Spoken English (BASE) corpus, which was developed at the

Universities of Warwick and Reading under the directorship of Hilary Nesi

(Warwick) and Paul Thompson (Reading). Corpus development was assisted by

funding from the Universities of Warwick and Reading, BALEAP, EURALEX, the

British Academy and the Arts and Humanities Research Board. </p></availability>




<recording dur="00:26:11" n="4841">


<respStmt><name>BASE team</name>



<langUsage><language id="en">English</language>



<person id="nf0350" role="main speaker" n="n" sex="f"><p>nf0350, main speaker, non-student, female</p></person>

<person id="nm0349" role="participant" n="n" sex="m"><p>nm0349, participant, non-student, male</p></person>

<person id="nf0351" role="participant" n="n" sex="f"><p>nf0351, participant, non-student, female</p></person>

<person id="nm0352" role="participant" n="n" sex="m"><p>nm0352, participant, non-student, male</p></person>

<person id="nf0353" role="participant" n="n" sex="f"><p>nf0353, participant, non-student, female</p></person>

<person id="nm0354" role="participant" n="n" sex="m"><p>nm0354, participant, non-student, male</p></person>

<person id="nm0355" role="participant" n="n" sex="m"><p>nm0355, participant, non-student, male</p></person>

<person id="nm0356" role="participant" n="n" sex="m"><p>nm0356, participant, non-student, male</p></person>

<person id="nf0357" role="participant" n="n" sex="f"><p>nf0357, participant, non-student, female</p></person>

<person id="nf0358" role="participant" n="n" sex="f"><p>nf0358, participant, non-student, female</p></person>

<person id="nm0359" role="participant" n="n" sex="m"><p>nm0359, participant, non-student, male</p></person>

<personGrp id="ss" role="audience" size="m"><p>ss, audience, medium group </p></personGrp>

<personGrp id="sl" role="all" size="m"><p>sl, all, medium group</p></personGrp>

<personGrp role="speakers" size="13"><p>number of speakers: 13</p></personGrp>





<item n="speechevent">Lecture</item>

<item n="acaddept">Medicine</item>

<item n="acaddiv">ls</item>

<item n="partlevel">Staff</item>

<item n="module">unknown</item>




<u who="nm0349"><kinesic desc="projector is on showing slide" iterated="n"/> our next speaker unfortunately cannot be with us because she's ill # <gap reason="name" extent="2 words"/> who was actually going to address the issue <pause dur="0.3"/> of problem solving that <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> has just <pause dur="0.5"/> just raised <pause dur="0.4"/> # but <gap reason="name" extent="2 words"/> has kindly stepped in <pause dur="0.2"/> at the last moment to <pause dur="0.4"/> talk about </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> railroaded <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>i think is <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="sl" dur="1"/> <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/></u><u who="nm0349" trans="overlap"> railroaded at the last moment to talk about the # <pause dur="0.2"/> subject of evaluation <pause dur="0.6"/> when the unit the G-P undergraduate unit was set up here at # <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> Medical School <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> has been one of the people who has been <pause dur="0.4"/> pivotal in making it <pause dur="0.3"/> move forward because we've had to <pause dur="0.3"/> recruit <pause dur="0.2"/> recruit G-P training practices <pause dur="0.5"/> and we've had to recruit hospital teachers we've had to run training courses for the <pause dur="0.4"/> teachers in general practice <pause dur="0.3"/> and hospital <pause dur="0.3"/> and we're shortly going to be running an examiners' course <pause dur="0.4"/> at # the <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> end for for <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> students <pause dur="0.7"/> and <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> is <pause dur="0.6"/> coordinating <pause dur="0.2"/> all of this activity <pause dur="0.4"/>

one of the other <pause dur="0.2"/> important <pause dur="0.3"/> aspects of this and <gap reason="name" extent="2 words"/> <pause dur="0.3"/> raised it right at the beginning <pause dur="0.2"/> was about evaluation <pause dur="0.4"/> who is evaluation for <pause dur="0.3"/> and we do have a system of <pause dur="0.2"/> evaluation at the moment and <pause dur="0.4"/> one of the questions we've been asking is what do we do with it <pause dur="0.4"/> how can we improve the quality <pause dur="0.2"/> of evaluation <pause dur="0.3"/> and the Q-A Q-A-A is going to hit <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> very shortly <pause dur="0.4"/> and with the evaluation that we're getting we're going to be seen to have to do <pause dur="0.4"/> something <pause dur="0.2"/> with it that may change <pause dur="0.3"/> the way the course is run at the moment <pause dur="0.5"/> and <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> has run # <pause dur="0.7"/> a project in relation to evaluation <pause dur="0.2"/> our students on the Clinical Methods course <pause dur="0.4"/> where students are attached in general practice to learn <pause dur="0.2"/> consultation competencies <pause dur="0.2"/> in clinical medical practice but in <pause dur="0.2"/> the general practice setting <pause dur="0.4"/> so <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> is going to explain this to us so i'll <pause dur="0.2"/> <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="nf0350" dur="1"/> hand over to <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> thank you </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nf0350" trans="pause">

i'm sorry this is not going to be as long or as exciting as <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>'s would have been but it'll fill a little gap in the agenda <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> just to give you some history # i think generally # <pause dur="0.3"/> it's accepted that feedback from students # using the questionnaire <pause dur="0.5"/> is # <pause dur="0.4"/> is not always working <pause dur="0.2"/> <vocal desc="clears throat" iterated="n"/> simply because the students don't always return their questionnaires 'cause there's no incentive for them to do so <pause dur="0.7"/> # so <pause dur="0.3"/> myself and my colleague from <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> University <gap reason="name" extent="2 words"/> went on a course in London <unclear><trunc>lames</trunc></unclear> led by # Professor <gap reason="name" extent="2 words"/> <pause dur="0.5"/> to learn about how to gather and respond to student feedback in other ways other than using a questionnaire <pause dur="1.1"/> and the reason for making sure that we do get this feedback <pause dur="0.5"/> is <pause dur="0.3"/> that <pause dur="0.4"/> mainly <pause dur="0.5"/> there are <pause dur="0.3"/> there are two issues the the quality assessment assurance agency <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.8"/> which will be coming to <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> in March <pause dur="0.4"/> # and <pause dur="0.4"/> also because the White Paper that was released by the government in January <pause dur="0.5"/>

# in <pause dur="0.3"/> # one of their sections chapter four that <pause dur="1.0"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> underlines the fact that they want information from students the feedback to become more transparent <pause dur="0.4"/> and they want this information out into the public domain <pause dur="0.3"/> as already happens in Australia and the U-S-A <pause dur="0.5"/> # which is a little bit worrying because # as soon as that information gets into the public domain students will start making their choices on what other students have said so <pause dur="0.4"/> we need to make sure that the information we're getting in <pause dur="0.3"/> if it's # <pause dur="0.2"/> if it's not so great we're actually acting on that and and following it through <pause dur="1.3"/><kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> so <pause dur="0.4"/> the system <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> <gap reason="name" extent="2 words"/> proposes <pause dur="0.7"/> is called the # student <pause dur="0.3"/> consultation process <pause dur="0.5"/> # it's not to take away from the value of using questionnaires which does have its place for gathering <pause dur="0.2"/> qualitative information <pause dur="0.4"/> but we still need to think of a way of getting students to make sure they complete those forms and fill them back and a good way of evaluating that information

when it's in <pause dur="1.5"/> and over this <pause dur="0.2"/> # consultation period i'm going to cover the the principles of the the consultation how that information's fed back and and conclusions and suggestions <pause dur="1.5"/><kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> so the the way we do this is we get the students together halfway through their course so that and it's always after a lecture they know that we're taking them seriously <pause dur="0.4"/> they think that we're listening to them and we are <trunc>gon</trunc> we're going to <trunc>re</trunc> form a report and we're going to act upon what they've said <pause dur="0.8"/> and the question that we're always asking them is that <pause dur="0.6"/> that we're interested in in what's affecting their learning <pause dur="0.4"/> which has a more positive # thought process if you were to phrase a question such as # <pause dur="1.8"/> what <trunc>i</trunc> what is <trunc>i</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> good or bad about your teaching they will automatically start thinking of negatives this teacher's <pause dur="0.3"/> this teacher's not teaching us this or <pause dur="0.2"/> we're not getting this <pause dur="0.4"/> # whereas this gets them thinking more in terms of the whole course <pause dur="0.4"/> and you will get negative stuff coming out

but <pause dur="0.4"/> it's what tends to happen and from experience they will say <pause dur="0.3"/> well this isn't so good have you thought about doing this so they're making positive recommendations for change <pause dur="0.3"/> themselves <pause dur="7.8"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> so <pause dur="0.2"/> basically # it's an opportunity for the students and the staff to work together in processing ideas and opinions <pause dur="0.6"/> to <pause dur="0.2"/> to <pause dur="0.7"/> come together as a collective to work on ways forward <pause dur="0.7"/> and the idea is that <pause dur="0.2"/> because the students are <pause dur="0.2"/> # aware that it's confidential the <pause dur="0.2"/> the sessions are run by somebody who's not involved in the teaching whatsoever <pause dur="0.4"/> so in the case of the Clinical Methods course <pause dur="0.3"/> i normally run them because i i <pause dur="0.3"/> don't have any influence one way or another <pause dur="0.3"/> and the students aren't afraid just to tell me what they think <pause dur="0.4"/> # and they do tell me <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>what they think <vocal desc="laugh" iterated="n"/><shift feature="voice" new="normal"/> <pause dur="0.8"/> # and <pause dur="0.8"/> after that # process has happened the evaluation is built up in the form of a report <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.9"/> that <pause dur="0.2"/> is broken down into sections and from this

the student will liaise with me afterwards to to confirm that the report's okay and that they're happy with the report <pause dur="0.8"/> from then on the process is taken to the next level which is almost the most difficult because <pause dur="0.4"/> with the feedback that you get some of it is negative and that has to be fed back to the tutors or the hospitals or the G-Ps concerned <pause dur="0.6"/> but there is a way of feeding it back with again the <pause dur="0.2"/> the highlighting the positive <pause dur="0.3"/> recommendations <pause dur="0.7"/> and the worst for us is always the hospital feedback <pause dur="0.6"/> but # <pause dur="0.3"/> we're we're slowly # <pause dur="0.3"/> making changes and meeting with the undergraduate coordinators so <pause dur="0.2"/> so things are moving along <pause dur="2.3"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> # <pause dur="0.9"/> one of the things <pause dur="0.2"/> that he # says is to make sure you know how you're going to address a situation should the should they arrive so <pause dur="0.6"/> are you going to discuss it with individuals alone <pause dur="0.2"/> or or in a group and we've been meeting as a G-P group and then # feeding out the information <pause dur="0.4"/> to the hospitals once we've agreed how we're

going to feed it back thereafter <pause dur="3.2"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> # <pause dur="0.9"/> it's important to have the whole team involved <pause dur="0.2"/> in this and to take on board what is coming back <pause dur="0.4"/> and to all work forwards to <pause dur="0.3"/> to improve the course for in all aspects departmental teaching G-Ps hospitals <pause dur="0.8"/> # and making sure that all the reports that we're building up along the way have these actions closed off so that should anybody <pause dur="0.2"/> from the Q-A-A ever come and look at those reports they're always closed off or we can say that they're in action so we're thinking about doing this <pause dur="0.4"/> we're trialling this <pause dur="0.4"/> # and and so on <pause dur="0.6"/> so <pause dur="0.3"/> that's <pause dur="0.2"/> basically how the student consultation process works and we've just trialled it # in two Clinical Methods blocks <pause dur="0.2"/> for the moment <pause dur="0.5"/> # and the feedback we've had has been very very productive <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> and very qualitative and full of suggestions and actually we've taken on board a lot of the <trunc>s</trunc> the students' suggestions so far <pause dur="0.5"/> # and we're trying to work together with the hospitals and the

G-Ps to to improve things so <pause dur="0.6"/> that's it </u><pause dur="0.7"/> <u who="nm0349" trans="pause"> thank you </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> <vocal desc="laugh" iterated="n"/> </u><pause dur="1.3"/> <u who="nm0349" trans="pause"> any questions at all <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> </u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="nf0350" trans="pause"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> <vocal desc="laugh" iterated="n"/></u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="nf0351" trans="pause"> i think it's it's really encouraging to hear that # <pause dur="0.3"/> such you know such steps are being taken to make your student feedback really is activated <pause dur="0.4"/> in particular # <pause dur="0.4"/> i think it's great that the individual tutors are getting individual feedback <pause dur="0.6"/> and i think that that's a very different situation to the sort of <pause dur="0.7"/> evaluation forms that you mentioned earlier <pause dur="0.4"/> what we'd be really interested to know though is # is how how that's # perceived <pause dur="0.7"/> by the tutors # <pause dur="0.2"/> i think you made one comment in particular about # with a big smile on your face when you said particularly enjoyable <pause dur="0.2"/> feeding back to the hospital <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="nf0350" dur="1"/><shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>consultants<shift feature="voice" new="normal"/> </u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="nf0350" trans="pause"> yeah </u><u who="nf0351" trans="overlap">

# <pause dur="0.2"/> # <trunc>i</trunc> if you don't mind i'd really like to understand a bit more about # <pause dur="0.4"/> how that process is going down with the tutors </u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="nf0350" trans="pause"> # with the tutors in the department we've only had very positive feedback so we've been quite <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>lucky <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.6"/> <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="1"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> with the consultants the way <trunc>i</trunc> <pause dur="0.3"/> or with the hospitals the way we're working it is that <pause dur="0.2"/> i'm going via the undergraduate coordinators <pause dur="0.3"/> # because some of the problems that have arisen are not <pause dur="0.5"/> are not <trunc>s</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> they're they're not a personality thing some of it is organization it's pressure on the fact that they're in hospitals <pause dur="0.4"/> # it's underresourcing it's understaffing staff have had to go away for certain reasons and <pause dur="0.2"/> and that causes all kinds of problems so sometimes it's just an initial this has happened <pause dur="0.7"/> and there'll be a an immediate answer which is acceptable because you know people do go off sick and people are </u><u who="nf0351" trans="overlap"> mm </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap">

under pressure <pause dur="0.4"/> # and other things that we're working together with the hospitals on such as <pause dur="0.4"/> # a specific <trunc>f</trunc> piece of feedback is that the students don't feel that they're getting # <pause dur="0.9"/> the same <pause dur="0.3"/> learning experience across the three hospitals that we use so we're working to form a logbook with all three hospitals so that we can <pause dur="0.2"/> check the correlation and make sure they're all getting the same kind of experience so <pause dur="0.3"/> so far we're all working really well as a group together </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nf0351" trans="pause"> it does it does certainly does sound like that and we'll <pause dur="0.2"/> touch wood that that <pause dur="0.3"/> that continues for </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/><gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/><shift feature="voice" new="normal"/> </u><u who="nf0351" trans="overlap"> yourselves and for all of us as well <pause dur="0.4"/> one thing that did cross my mind although we all hope it never happens <pause dur="0.3"/> given the sheer volume of doctors that you know are spread across <pause dur="0.5"/> X number of teaching hospitals <pause dur="0.7"/> if it did arise where perhaps # <pause dur="0.4"/> some quite serious feedback was coming back from <pause dur="0.9"/> a significant number of

students then there might be a serious problem with perhaps the attitude of a member of staff or that <pause dur="0.3"/> blocks of teaching were being missed </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> mm-hmm </u><u who="nf0351" trans="overlap"> # and i hope it doesn't happen <pause dur="0.3"/> <trunc>i</trunc> if it did <pause dur="1.0"/> is there some sort of system in place where that that would be addressed </u><u who="nf0350" trans="latching"> mm-hmm <pause dur="0.3"/> the mechanism involved would be # <pause dur="0.2"/> the the route through the university so from the consultation process <pause dur="0.4"/> if it came up with a <trunc>pesic</trunc> particular consultant then <trunc>m</trunc> then my route is to discuss that with <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> as the G-P director </u><u who="nf0351" trans="overlap"> right </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> <pause dur="0.3"/> and then we would go out and see the director of the particular hospital and discuss it with him <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> because we won't get involved in other people's managerial structures </u><u who="nf0351" trans="overlap"> i understand </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> or or that kind of thing or or or taking a lead on that so it's for <pause dur="0.8"/> to remain in the hospital domain but <pause dur="0.2"/> with us saying just raising an issue that that was raised up by the students </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nf0351" trans="pause">

that's really interesting thank you </u><pause dur="1.2"/> <u who="nm0352" trans="pause"> can i make a comment # <pause dur="0.8"/> the medical school is very young <pause dur="0.3"/> three to four years <pause dur="1.0"/> when we <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> accidentally <unclear>with being</unclear> the Bosworth group <pause dur="0.6"/> start a meeting up <pause dur="0.4"/> i didn't even realize what we were into <pause dur="0.7"/> the vast majority of hospital consultants who are teaching our students <pause dur="0.2"/> have never been through this <pause dur="0.5"/> training process </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> mm-hmm </u><u who="nm0352" trans="overlap"> this sort of thing </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="nf0350" trans="pause"> mm-hmm </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="nm0352" trans="pause"> will be absolutely normal to some of my surgical <pause dur="0.4"/> colleagues who have never been through courses <pause dur="0.6"/> and we evaluate it in people <pause dur="0.2"/> in the meanwhile <pause dur="0.8"/> now the students is a big generation gap these students have gone through <pause dur="0.3"/> very new methods of teaching <pause dur="0.5"/> the psychologists and the educators are coming up with new methods of teaching <pause dur="0.4"/> out there my colleagues <pause dur="0.2"/> who are teaching clinical methods <pause dur="0.9"/> learned it from their peer groups without any <pause dur="0.3"/> teachers training college or any approach <pause dur="1.1"/> and we are evaluating consultants students are giving opinions about <pause dur="0.3"/> consultants <unclear>to the best</unclear> and then you mention <pause dur="0.3"/> all the difficulties consultants have resources et cetera </u><u who="nf0350" trans="latching"> mm </u><pause dur="0.6"/> <u who="nm0352" trans="pause">

so i think the evaluating process needs to be looked at in a different way too <pause dur="0.5"/> we need to get our consultants back into the educational process </u><u who="ss" trans="latching"> mm </u><u who="nm0352" trans="overlap"> and expose them to the most <pause dur="0.5"/> recent methods of teaching <pause dur="0.7"/> as opposed to and yet we're evaluating their methods </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> mm </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nm0352" trans="pause"> i wonder if you have comments on that </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> one of the things that # <pause dur="0.2"/> <gap reason="name" extent="2 words"/> has started doing is running # courses for consultants for # that are available to the consultants in the three hospitals that are linked to <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> University <pause dur="0.5"/> # and we've run one <pause dur="0.5"/> already that we've had very positive feedback on from the consultants that attended and from the students <pause dur="0.4"/> who then saw the changes # in how they were being taught which was very productive towards their final assessment <pause dur="0.5"/> # and <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> continues to run those courses so we are </u><u who="nf0353" trans="latching"> with exactly that in mind <pause dur="0.2"/> but so i mean it's the most important thing that we're <pause dur="0.3"/> sort

of trying to do is to is to get some uniformity across the teaching <pause dur="0.5"/> be and to make sure that everybody's teaching from the sort of singing from the same hymnsheet and doing it in the same way <pause dur="0.5"/> but it has been very well received and it's # it's going well </u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="nm0354" trans="pause"> good </u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="nm0355" trans="pause"> good you can say it's well received but <pause dur="0.5"/> i can't imagine in one session or two sessions <pause dur="0.4"/> you can give to those consultants who are teaching <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> to students <pause dur="0.3"/> what we are getting in the courses over <pause dur="1.0"/> weeks and probably years i think we need to get those consultants out of the <pause dur="0.5"/> # work situation <pause dur="0.6"/> put them into situations like these <pause dur="0.4"/> so that they go back into teaching and modify their methods of <pause dur="0.6"/> # so if you were to analyse <pause dur="0.3"/> like what we are hearing about microanatomy of consultation skills <pause dur="0.8"/> i don't think my colleagues are used to that method of <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/> </u><u who="nf0353" trans="overlap"> they aren't and but Rome's not built in a day </u><u who="nm0355" trans="overlap"> no of course 'cause i mean </u><u who="nf0353" trans="overlap"> the first thing we need to the first thing we need to

the very first thing is is to enter some sort of relationship with your consultants between the general practitioners the department and the consultants <pause dur="0.3"/> so the first <trunc>g</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> they haven't got time to come on long courses <pause dur="0.3"/> but if they develop an interest and if every time <pause dur="0.3"/> we forge a relationship and we build on that <pause dur="0.3"/> say for instance # we're running these consultant workshops <pause dur="0.3"/> been developing a log i'm very keen when we've got this logbook to send it out to <pause dur="0.3"/> the <pause dur="0.2"/> # fourteen consultants who came to our first workshop <pause dur="0.4"/> and ask them <pause dur="0.2"/> to develop it to think what their skills are <pause dur="0.3"/> and also to ask them what their idea is how they can take things forward because it <pause dur="0.2"/> we can't <pause dur="0.3"/> get a group of consultants and tell them <pause dur="0.2"/> to do it our way <pause dur="0.6"/> and in fact we can learn from their way if you like <pause dur="0.4"/> but they need <trunc>t</trunc> to be invited to think about it <pause dur="0.3"/> and to talk to us about it so that's really the aim of it <pause dur="0.4"/> it's really a liaison between consultants and <pause dur="0.3"/> G-Ps

and the department <pause dur="0.5"/> and trying to develop that and it's going to be very slow <pause dur="0.2"/> but i don't know any other medical school that's doing that <pause dur="1.0"/> you know i think there are good <pause dur="0.2"/> links up for instance in <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> i know that they talk a lot to their consultant colleagues and they have very good relationships <pause dur="0.5"/> # as you say we're a new university so we have to develop that but i don't know anywhere where that's actually sort of <pause dur="0.4"/> you know trying to get consultants in and trying to do that so i hope that <pause dur="0.2"/> we will get <pause dur="0.3"/> benefit of it but i think it's going to take an awful long time </u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="nm0356" trans="pause"> and it's also extremely encouraging that the students have reported back that the consultants who've been on the workshop <pause dur="0.3"/> are now teaching in a more structured way <pause dur="0.3"/> so although it is # it's only a day's course there is some uniformity coming from it so it's it's <pause dur="1.0"/> it's going to carry on being run isn't it <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> </u><u who="nf0353" trans="overlap"> yeah i think they're looking to carry on </u><u who="nm0356" trans="overlap"> just going to keep on keep on dripping dripping away at it's been very good </u><u who="nf0353" trans="overlap">

it's just so far so good i think but yeah <pause dur="0.2"/> yeah </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nf0357" trans="pause"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> how do you protect the confidentiality of the students <pause dur="0.6"/> 'cause if <pause dur="0.2"/> the contents </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> the students # </u><u who="nf0357" trans="overlap"> <unclear>of</unclear> the specific feedback </u><u who="nf0350" trans="latching"> yeah </u><u who="nf0357" trans="overlap"> going to guess where that's coming from <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/> </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> the reports go # as a collective <pause dur="0.5"/> # the <pause dur="0.5"/> <trunc>w</trunc> when they're all in here there's twenty-six on each Clinical Methods block <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> they just sign in so that i know on a on a completely separate sheet of paper just that i know if everybody has actually <pause dur="0.2"/> been in in the room <pause dur="0.4"/> # but there is no student's name mentioned at all anywhere in the report unless they specifically want me to mention it which none of them have so far <pause dur="0.6"/> # and the only persons whose name <pause dur="0.3"/> the only person whose name goes on

the report is the student that's asked to witness the report <pause dur="0.3"/> is an accurate account of the meeting that i held with them <pause dur="0.3"/> and they volunteer for that position and they just read it through and sign it off otherwise then that is completely confidential <pause dur="0.2"/> it remains between me <pause dur="0.2"/> and the twenty-six students that i spoke to </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="nf0357" trans="pause"> you don't need a name do you if you <pause dur="0.2"/> if you get <trunc>nega</trunc> negative feedback from the group of students that you've been teaching </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="nf0350" trans="pause"> mm </u><pause dur="0.6"/> <u who="nf0357" trans="pause"> you may well have some idea <pause dur="0.5"/> which particular students have given that negative feedback <pause dur="0.3"/> so how do you protect <pause dur="0.5"/> them from that </u><pause dur="0.5"/> <u who="nf0350" trans="pause"> well with the hospitals i mean there's a group of eight <pause dur="0.3"/> students in there <pause dur="0.6"/> at one time <pause dur="0.2"/> with the department we have groups of eight <pause dur="0.2"/> students <pause dur="0.3"/> at one time <pause dur="0.3"/> so it's protected that way <pause dur="0.2"/> as regards to students one on one teaching in a general practice <pause dur="0.4"/> # the feedback <pause dur="0.5"/> is clarified by the

questionnaires <pause dur="0.3"/> # which the the G-Ps have access to anyway on an annual basis <pause dur="0.4"/> so # the information there that's <pause dur="0.4"/> that's put together there is going to be exactly the same as in public <unclear>domain</unclear> have they not had two video sessions or <pause dur="0.2"/> did they not have enough professional teaching sessions <pause dur="0.4"/> that kind of thing and they're all in this questionnaire anyway the G-Ps have been receiving <pause dur="0.4"/> # # it's coming from <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> and <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> has used it very successfully there so <pause dur="0.4"/> that feedback's always been well received and they're keen to receive it </u><u who="nf0357" trans="latching"> mm </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> so </u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="nf0351" trans="pause"> do you think it's about clarifying your objectives on that because # i think perhaps the situation that <pause dur="0.3"/> crossed my mind then is <pause dur="0.6"/> what if there was # a particular <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> instance with a particular student and a particular tutor <pause dur="0.3"/> where if that was logged it couldn't possibly be any other student but the one that was present </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> right </u><u who="nf0351" trans="overlap"> at

the time when it happened </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> mm-hmm </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nf0351" trans="pause"> i think that's where you're starting to cross into the boundaries perhaps in personal tutoring or student counselling scheme </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> mm-hmm </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nf0351" trans="pause"> and so i think as # <trunc>f</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> it sounds like you've set up very clearly defined <pause dur="0.4"/> boundaries is that what i think <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> we do provide pastoral care as well </u><u who="nf0351" trans="overlap"> right </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> and any student has <trunc>pesic</trunc> specific issue has a pastoral care tutor dedicated to them <pause dur="0.3"/> and that pastoral care tutor also liaises between <pause dur="0.3"/> G-Ps and the student and the hospitals and the student # </u><u who="nf0351" trans="overlap"> right </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> and she's there for all phase two students # as well as the phase two coordinator <pause dur="0.3"/> #

and the phase two administrator <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> at the back <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/><vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="2"/> so we have <vocal desc="laugh" iterated="n"/><pause dur="0.5"/> we had # lots of people in place that will deal with specific issues <pause dur="0.3"/> # with the pastoral care tutors involved or to <trunc>li</trunc> to listen to them </u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="nm0349" trans="pause"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> </u><pause dur="0.6"/> <u who="nf0358" trans="pause"> can i ask a more general question do you know that the students' understanding of their objectives from this course are the same as the consultants' <pause dur="0.2"/> or the G-Ps' understanding of the objectives of the course <pause dur="0.5"/> 'cause when you're getting feedback from the students presumably you're getting feedback as to whether it's meeting the students' objectives on your course </u><u who="nf0350" trans="latching"> mm-hmm </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="nf0358" trans="pause"> now there may be quite a different understanding as <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> was saying about what the consultants think the students are </u><pause dur="0.5"/> <u who="nf0350" trans="pause"> mm </u><u who="nf0358" trans="overlap"> well what their objectives are and how did you <pause dur="0.4"/> look at that </u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="nf0350" trans="pause">

well there there have been some issues similar to that already raised where there there is clearly a difference in what the students believe and and what the hospitals believe <pause dur="0.4"/> # generally in the level the teaching is pitched or or that kind of thing but <pause dur="0.5"/> we can only reinforce the the way the assessment is carried out and again by by use of introducing the consultant <pause dur="0.3"/> the consultants' workshop that <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> runs <pause dur="0.4"/> # and making sure that all <trunc>th</trunc> <pause dur="0.4"/> the objectives of the course outline are <pause dur="0.2"/> <trunc>hi</trunc> # <pause dur="0.3"/> are are sent to everybody so that the students and the consultants know <pause dur="0.4"/> and the G-Ps <pause dur="0.2"/> know exactly what the assessment is # made up of and and how will their this going to get there over this eight week clinical block </u><pause dur="0.6"/> <u who="nm0349" trans="pause"> # the objective is to </u><u who="nf0358" trans="overlap"> the it's it's partly asking what the understanding of the consultants of that information is really <pause dur="0.2"/> 'cause telling them about what the assessment is isn't necessarily </u><u who="nm0349" trans="overlap"> but </u><u who="nf0358" trans="overlap">

telling them the same thing about what the objective is </u><u who="nm0349" trans="overlap"> the objectives are very very clearly defined and the it the students are actually told that on day one </u><u who="nf0358" trans="overlap"> right </u><u who="nm0349" trans="overlap"> there is a handbook that goes to the consultants the G-Ps <pause dur="0.2"/> and the students <pause dur="0.3"/> and the objectives i think appear on the i'm right in saying think they appear on the first page and they're very very clearly defined <pause dur="0.3"/> and certainly during the first week <pause dur="0.5"/> they're repeated and repeated and repeated as to what the objectives of the </u><u who="nf0358" trans="overlap"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> </u><u who="nm0349" trans="overlap"> course are </u><u who="nf0358" trans="overlap"> when you get more feedback is it suggesting that actually the consultants are working to that objective <pause dur="0.7"/> when you're saying you're getting negative feedback and getting </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> mm </u><u who="nf0358" trans="overlap"> <unclear>it about</unclear> the hospital <pause dur="0.4"/> is is that <pause dur="0.6"/> illustrating that there is a difference in perception of objectives </u><pause dur="0.6"/> <u who="nm0349" trans="pause">

the # # <pause dur="0.2"/> i think <trunc>th</trunc> there is <pause dur="0.2"/> between some of the hospital consultants <pause dur="0.4"/> but that was the reason for us setting up this course for <pause dur="0.4"/> # consultant workshops <pause dur="0.2"/> exactly it's exactly the same course <pause dur="0.3"/> but it's run for the G-P teachers in <pause dur="0.4"/> in practice because obviously <pause dur="0.3"/> those G-P teachers if they haven't been on the course would have a different perception <pause dur="0.5"/> of the objectives but i think i'm correct <pause dur="0.6"/> correct in saying that <pause dur="0.4"/> i don't know if <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> wants to <pause dur="0.3"/> 'cause you've been doing this for many years i don't know if you want to throw in anything </u><pause dur="0.5"/> <u who="nm0359" trans="pause"> well i think we have very similar problems in terms of <pause dur="0.2"/> a discrepancy in student view <pause dur="0.7"/> the teaching they get from G-Ps and consultants now that <pause dur="0.5"/> i think that partly that's a a generic problem <pause dur="0.2"/> of <pause dur="0.3"/> delivering teaching in hospital settings <pause dur="0.4"/> generally <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="1.1"/> but i think <pause dur="0.2"/> i mean the processes that we've used i think <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> one <pause dur="0.4"/> pitfall which you are aware of and that i think we have to avoid it <pause dur="0.6"/> is how you

provide <pause dur="0.3"/> negative feedback and essentially it is negative feedback <pause dur="0.5"/> to our consultant colleagues teaching on this course and of course it is perceived as originating in the Department of General Practice <pause dur="0.7"/> and i think that's made difficulties for us in our relationships with the hospitals <pause dur="0.4"/> and of course we have no <pause dur="0.3"/> no form of control over the activities we have no we don't recruit the consultants for the teaching <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> we deliver the feedback to the <pause dur="0.3"/> responsible people within the hospital <pause dur="0.5"/> but that's really as far as it goes and i think <pause dur="0.4"/> over a period of time the perception of the consultant colleague that <pause dur="0.2"/> i don't want to get involved in this course because i don't want to be compared with G-Ps who get wonderful feedback all the time <pause dur="0.6"/> has made it hard to sustain <pause dur="0.5"/> quality teaching in the hospital setting so <pause dur="0.2"/> and we have <pause dur="0.5"/> two or three consultants who <pause dur="0.2"/> are fully signed up to the objectives of the course understand it to teach according to those

objectives and get excellent feedback <pause dur="0.4"/> on a par with our G-P teachers <pause dur="0.5"/> now we have a number of conscripts who get <pause dur="0.2"/> terrible <pause dur="0.2"/> feedback <pause dur="0.2"/> 'cause they <pause dur="0.2"/> don't know what they're doing and they don't want to be doing it </u><pause dur="1.4"/> <u who="nm0349" trans="pause"> i mean is </u><u who="nf0350" trans="overlap"> the i think that # the <pause dur="1.7"/> the feedback that we got after the first consultants' workshop from the students was that <pause dur="0.2"/> they <trunc>d</trunc> <trunc>n</trunc> noticed a visible difference in the teaching <pause dur="0.4"/> of the <trunc>stu</trunc> # of <pause dur="0.4"/> from the consultants in the four weeks <pause dur="0.2"/> previous <pause dur="0.2"/> that they'd been with them <pause dur="0.4"/> <trunc>t</trunc> to <pause dur="0.2"/> and then there was the consultants' workshop and then they still had four weeks in the in with the same consultants <pause dur="0.3"/> and they noticed # an amazing difference in that <pause dur="0.3"/> it seemed that the consultants and the G-Ps were now headed in the same direction <pause dur="0.5"/> with the level of teaching # and the objectives of it so <pause dur="0.5"/> i i think the the course has been quite productive in in helping to align <pause dur="0.4"/> everything </u><pause dur="0.5"/> <u who="nm0349" trans="pause">

and and also we're we're very lucky # <pause dur="0.2"/> at this end because <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> has already mentioned it because of this thing called the Bosworth Consultant <pause dur="0.6"/> Educators' Group <pause dur="0.3"/> we have <pause dur="0.2"/> been working closely together and one of the things that's actually developed from this and that's the reason a lot of people are here today <pause dur="0.4"/> is this Master's in in Medical Education course <pause dur="0.5"/> so that we are trying to work together on it but one of the new ideas that we implemented was this <trunc>con</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> consultant <pause dur="0.5"/> consultants' workshop in relation to the Clinical Methods course <pause dur="0.4"/> we're going to be running one two in relation to the examiners' course for the <pause dur="0.4"/> intermediate clinical examination and final clinical examination <pause dur="0.3"/> it's been a wonderful opportunity as well for <pause dur="0.3"/> consultants and G-Ps to meet together and <pause dur="0.4"/> share ideas i mean obviously there are <pause dur="0.2"/> different as <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>'s pointed out <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> <pause dur="0.4"/> perceptions in <pause dur="0.4"/> in objectives but # <pause dur="0.3"/> but i think we're <trunc>war</trunc>

working very closely <pause dur="0.4"/> together on that <pause dur="0.4"/> can i say a really big thank you to <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> for stepping in at the <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="1"/> at the last moment <pause dur="6.2"/> <kinesic desc="applause" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="5"/> just going to break for tea in a second one one of the things that this has also has raised in my mind listening particularly <trunc>t</trunc> to <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>'s talk <pause dur="0.7"/> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> and <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> are going to both very shortly be taking graduate entry students and one of the things that we've learned at the <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> site about graduate entry students is <pause dur="0.3"/> they're very much educational consumers <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> because unlike the sixth form entry students a lot of them haven't had to make the same particularly economic sacrifices <pause dur="0.4"/> one of the students at our practice recently <pause dur="0.3"/> was spending half their time working in Costcutter <pause dur="0.3"/> on the university campus to generate enough income to stay on the course <pause dur="0.5"/> so that if they do get teaching which they perceive <pause dur="0.3"/> is not adequate <pause dur="0.3"/> they are very very quick to tell us about that <pause dur="0.4"/> # almost <pause dur="0.2"/> it

happens almost instantly <pause dur="0.3"/> so this is one of the reasons we were very keen to <pause dur="0.3"/> # generate a new a new system of evaluation <pause dur="0.7"/> # for those of you that are on the Master's <pause dur="0.2"/> module today <pause dur="0.5"/> i i'm because i'm on it as well i've felt very much that the <pause dur="0.5"/> # presentations that we've been given have given us great insight into what is the title of the module <pause dur="0.3"/> effective teaching <pause dur="0.4"/> i hope you'll agree with me but perhaps disagree with me over at coffee time <pause dur="0.4"/> <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="1"/> if necessary <pause dur="0.3"/> we're going to have one more # talk after coffee because we've <pause dur="0.2"/> talked very much on the the area <pause dur="0.3"/> of <pause dur="0.2"/> effective teachers but as teachers we all have learning needs as well <pause dur="0.4"/> and we're going to talk a little bit about the issue of writing personal development plans and perhaps meeting our own needs <pause dur="0.3"/> as learners and teachers in a sort of <pause dur="0.4"/> combined way <pause dur="0.3"/> coffee again is in <pause dur="0.2"/> seminar room one <pause dur="0.3"/> and we'll meet again at half past three in here for the final <pause dur="0.4"/> final session