Skip to main content


<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>

<!DOCTYPE TEI.2 PUBLIC "base.dtd" "base.dtd">





<title>Auditing Systems and Staff Training</title></titleStmt>

<publicationStmt><distributor>BASE and Oxford Text Archive</distributor>


<availability><p>The British Academic Spoken English (BASE) corpus was developed at the Universities of Warwick and Reading, under the directorship of Hilary Nesi (Centre for English Language Teacher Education, Warwick) and Paul Thompson (Department of Applied Linguistics, Reading), with funding from BALEAP, EURALEX, the British Academy and the Arts and Humanities Research Board. The original recordings are held at the Universities of Warwick and Reading, and at the Oxford Text Archive and may be consulted by bona fide researchers upon written application to any of the holding bodies. The BASE corpus is freely available to researchers who agree to the following conditions:</p>

<p>1. The recordings and transcriptions should not be modified in any


<p>2. The recordings and transcriptions should be used for research purposes

only; they should not be reproduced in teaching materials</p>

<p>3. The recordings and transcriptions should not be reproduced in full for

a wider audience/readership, although researchers are free to quote short

passages of text (up to 200 running words from any given speech event)</p>

<p>4. The corpus developers should be informed of all presentations or

publications arising from analysis of the corpus</p><p> Researchers should acknowledge their use of the corpus using the following form of words: The recordings and transcriptions used in this study come from the British Academic Spoken English (BASE) corpus, which was developed at the Universities of Warwick and Reading under the directorship of Hilary Nesi (Warwick) and Paul Thompson (Reading). Corpus development was assisted by funding from the Universities of Warwick and Reading, BALEAP, EURALEX, the British Academy and the Arts and Humanities Research Board. </p></availability>




<recording dur="00:58:52" n="12255">


<respStmt><name>BASE team</name>



<langUsage><language id="en">English</language>



<person id="nm1346" role="main speaker" n="n" sex="m"><p>nm1346, main speaker, non-student, male</p></person>

<person id="sf1347" role="participant" n="s" sex="f"><p>sf1347, participant, student, female</p></person>

<person id="sf1348" role="participant" n="s" sex="f"><p>sf1348, participant, student, female</p></person>

<person id="sf1349" role="participant" n="s" sex="f"><p>sf1349, participant, student, female</p></person>

<person id="sf1350" role="participant" n="s" sex="f"><p>sf1350, participant, student, female</p></person>

<person id="sf1351" role="participant" n="s" sex="f"><p>sf1351, participant, student, female</p></person>

<person id="sm1352" role="participant" n="s" sex="m"><p>sm1352, participant, student, male</p></person>

<person id="sf1353" role="participant" n="s" sex="f"><p>sf1353, participant, student, female</p></person>

<person id="sm1354" role="participant" n="s" sex="m"><p>sm1354, participant, student, male</p></person>

<person id="sm1355" role="participant" n="s" sex="m"><p>sm1355, participant, student, male</p></person>

<person id="sf1356" role="participant" n="s" sex="f"><p>sf1356, participant, student, female</p></person>

<person id="su1357" role="participant" n="s" sex="u"><p>su1357, participant, student, unknown</p></person>

<person id="su1358" role="participant" n="s" sex="u"><p>su1358, participant, student, unknown</p></person>

<personGrp id="ss" role="audience" size="s"><p>ss, audience, small group </p></personGrp>

<personGrp id="sl" role="all" size="s"><p>sl, all, small group</p></personGrp>

<personGrp role="speakers" size="13"><p>number of speakers: 13</p></personGrp>





<item n="speechevent">Lecture</item>

<item n="acaddept">Plant Sciences</item>

<item n="acaddiv">ls</item>

<item n="partlevel">UG2</item>

<item n="module">Quality Management Systems</item>







<u who="nm1346"><kinesic desc="overhead projector is on showing transparency" iterated="n"/> what i just want to do <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> first of all is just sort of <pause dur="0.3"/> # recap <pause dur="0.9"/> # this is not actually a comprehensive list but the types of <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="1.9"/> things that we talked about so far in this course in terms of <pause dur="0.4"/> # quality systems <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> procedures that take place <pause dur="0.5"/> we talked about specifications <pause dur="0.3"/> the idea that when you produce product <pause dur="0.6"/> it's # to a specification that's # <pause dur="0.4"/> reasonably precise definition of what it is <pause dur="0.6"/> what the customers expecting to see

<pause dur="2.0"/> we talked about # H-A-C-C-P-S <pause dur="0.5"/> # hazards and # critical control point <pause dur="1.0"/> # <trunc> con </trunc> <trunc> con </trunc> <pause dur="0.3"/> hazards and critical <trunc> co </trunc> control points <pause dur="0.4"/> analysis <pause dur="0.4"/> and system analysis generally <pause dur="0.6"/> reviewing <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> features in terms of <pause dur="0.3"/> # efficiency features in terms of <pause dur="0.5"/> health and safety system <pause dur="5.8"/> you've heard <pause dur="0.3"/> particularly from people like # professor <gap reason="name" extent="2 word"/> about protocols <pause dur="0.8"/> # you sure of <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> protocols # <pause dur="1.3"/> think systems to # <pause dur="0.8"/> assist you with # <pause dur="0.5"/> meeting required standard <pause dur="3.0"/> something i

<trunc> per </trunc> perhaps haven't said a lot about is work instructions # and the idea here <pause dur="0.4"/> is we're talking about <pause dur="0.7"/> # written pieces of information how the job should be performed <pause dur="0.6"/> so really a written specification on how to do a job <pause dur="6.3"/> and then there's general general records of work <pause dur="0.5"/> # general records of where a product is at any particular time of what it's being treated with <pause dur="0.5"/> of whose worked on it <pause dur="3.0"/> and <pause dur="0.4"/> the types of records that we would associate with # quality control too <pause dur="3.6"/> now <pause dur="0.6"/> # the theme of today <pause dur="0.5"/> is auditing <pause dur="0.6"/> and <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> what i want to suggest you is that auditing really utilizes this type of accumulated

information <pause dur="0.8"/> so the types of audits that we're talking about in <trunc> term </trunc> in terms <trunc> o </trunc> of quality management <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> # not sort of complete reviews of a system <pause dur="0.4"/> but rather reviews of the quality management systems that # <pause dur="0.4"/> support <pause dur="0.4"/> the way we produce our product <pause dur="4.3"/> and i'm also going to say a little bit in the session just to complete <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="1.8"/> the package in terms of quality management about benchmark <pause dur="1.0"/> that'll be just as a bit at the end before we have a break <pause dur="2.7"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> okay so what's what's what're the principles of auditing <trunc> wha </trunc> what is it <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> about <pause dur="2.1"/>

well we're talking about the process <pause dur="0.4"/> of checking to see that we comply with a protocol or a system <pause dur="0.8"/> and so when # <pause dur="0.4"/> Professor <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> was here he described <pause dur="0.4"/> # Assured Produce Scheme in fact that's audited every year or so when <pause dur="0.8"/> when when # <gap reason="name" extent="2 word"/> was here he explained <pause dur="0.4"/> how <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> and <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> have a whole series of all this <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> <pause dur="0.4"/> he'd sort of review <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> wasn't it for <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> <pause dur="1.2"/> so what we're focusing on is is how we actually pick up a process how it's actually done <pause dur="1.6"/> and whenever it

actually happens <pause dur="0.6"/> it should be based on agreed principles person doing the auditing <pause dur="0.6"/> shouldn't be criticizing the grower or producer <pause dur="0.7"/> something that they weren't aware they should be doing <pause dur="0.6"/> okay so auditing is always based on agreed principles <pause dur="1.4"/> it's not system analysis it's not looking for new things and new suggestions you can make about how things could be done <pause dur="0.4"/> it's it's checking something against <pause dur="0.5"/> an agreed system <pause dur="0.9"/> agreed principles <pause dur="2.6"/> and the type of auditing we are talking about today <pause dur="1.0"/> # in terms of quality management systems <pause dur="0.7"/> exams the management system <pause dur="0.2"/> rather than the process <pause dur="0.8"/> okay <pause dur="0.5"/> so i can say it's about

growing tomatoes <pause dur="0.2"/> they're not looking in detail <pause dur="0.3"/> at the production system on the nursery they're looking at the <pause dur="0.2"/> management systems to support that the type of records that are being kept # <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> the type of information that's collated <pause dur="4.4"/> and <pause dur="0.8"/> generally # the whole purpose of audit <pause dur="0.6"/> # in really any context <pause dur="0.4"/> is to apply # to give some assurance of compliance to third parties <pause dur="0.5"/> and this'll be true for financial type audit as well we're not talking about financial auditing today we're talking about quality management of auditing <pause dur="0.7"/> but the idea is always that a third party's going to be satisfied with your system complies the standard that that they they're expecting to

<pause dur="5.5"/> now i have suggested that a principle of auditing <pause dur="0.3"/> # is whatever outcome there is <pause dur="0.4"/> # should be published and agreed <pause dur="0.6"/> # by all those involved <pause dur="0.5"/> # by that i need to say it's not necessarily published to the general <pause dur="0.6"/> # # <pause dur="0.4"/> media or whatever <pause dur="0.6"/> but <pause dur="0.5"/> <trunc> y </trunc> you don't really have # it's not really <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> accepted protocol to complete audit or not giving any direct feedbacks to the organizations that's being audited and <pause dur="0.8"/> they should be noted <pause dur="5.3"/> and <pause dur="0.7"/> # audits only work <pause dur="0.8"/> if there is # some type of procedure to deal with issues of non-compliance <pause dur="0.6"/> if if your business is audited <pause dur="0.5"/> and #

basically you're not doing very well <pause dur="0.4"/> there must be be some type of procedure there to address that <pause dur="0.8"/> # an audit which just simply tells you <pause dur="1.1"/> # gives you a simple grade <pause dur="0.5"/> # which might suggest you're not doing very well and lets you carry on doing what you're doing in any case is not going to be <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> particularly effective <pause dur="3.9"/> so the difference between # auditing and types of analysis we talked about previously in the course <pause dur="1.4"/> are that audits are there generally to maintain # rather than to develop standards <pause dur="1.0"/> okay you don't expect to really see a significant system improvement through audit it's there about maintenance <pause dur="1.3"/> # <pause dur="1.0"/> and recording what standards are being achieved

rather than developing them <pause dur="0.5"/> directly in the first instance <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> <pause dur="5.1"/> now within # schemes like Assured Produce Scheme like <pause dur="1.2"/> BOPP it's recognized that there are several <pause dur="0.3"/> levels of auditing <pause dur="3.0"/> and # <pause dur="0.7"/> most basic level of auditing is self auditing where you actually checking for yourself what you're doing <pause dur="0.9"/> now <pause dur="0.5"/> this <pause dur="0.2"/> # is something which <pause dur="0.3"/> # i have been quite interested in # for some <pause dur="0.4"/> time # by by self here i mean extremely <pause dur="0.3"/> # <trunc> p </trunc> personalized auditing <pause dur="0.9"/> in your # handout <pause dur="0.4"/> i've actually # <pause dur="0.2"/> given you a sheet <pause dur="1.5"/> which actually didn't

actually come up very well in the # powerpoint so it is actually separate <pause dur="0.6"/> and <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> what it is is actually # a self audit <kinesic desc="holds up sheet" iterated="n"/> <pause dur="0.6"/> # that # we use on <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> it's used on <gap reason="name" extent="2 word"/> <pause dur="1.6"/> # which is <pause dur="0.3"/> # <kinesic desc="holds up sheet" iterated="y" dur="2"/> what i ask <pause dur="0.6"/> # people to complete periodically not after every job they do but periodically to review <pause dur="0.5"/> how well a possible job's been done <pause dur="0.8"/> so # really this just gives you an idea the type of immediate first hand audit that <pause dur="0.4"/> any employee this has might might do it's basically a checklist <pause dur="0.5"/> and it actually describes <pause

dur="0.8"/> # the idea behind it <pause dur="0.6"/> and the question in here is you should be able to give definitive yes or no answers <pause dur="0.5"/> so when it's # point five for example it's # <pause dur="0.4"/> <reading> correct and clean pots and containers used </reading> <pause dur="0.5"/> it might sound obvious but it has been a problem <pause dur="0.4"/> # on this nursery before <pause dur="0.3"/> and someone's got to simply say yes i've checked it's right <pause dur="0.4"/> well they'll soon realize it's not <pause dur="0.5"/> and obviously that's quite an important issue <pause dur="1.0"/> so the idea is <pause dur="0.3"/> that # you can actually definitively say <pause dur="0.4"/> yes or no that's a good principle of auditing to be to <trunc> ac </trunc> to be able to make some type of definitive statement <pause dur="2.3"/> and then in fact

there're three columns which i won't describe in detail <kinesic desc="indicates point on sheet" iterated="n"/> but the purpose of these columns is <pause dur="0.4"/> # to basically describe the significance of non-compliance <pause dur="0.7"/> okay so one is something that would be totally non-acceptable and has to be dealt with immediately two is something you wouldn't want to have happen again and three is well it's happened but it's not a big issue <pause dur="0.4"/> okay that's a basic outline of what happens there <pause dur="1.3"/> and so the way the system's used at <gap reason="name" extent="2 word"/> <pause dur="1.7"/> is that # periodically <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> and not necessarily because jobs are going particularly well or particularly badly <pause dur="0.4"/> but just simply so that people continually review what they're doing

<pause dur="0.9"/> # <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> might complete this new job that they've just done <pause dur="0.9"/> and then it's reviewed <pause dur="0.6"/> # with their supervisor they do it for themselves interview with a supervisor <pause dur="0.6"/> so the exercise actually has a training function too <pause dur="0.3"/> it actually allows us to identify if somebody understands why they're doing <pause dur="0.4"/> what they're doing <pause dur="4.5"/> the next sort of level up <pause dur="0.3"/> # is what you might regard or might describe as an internal audit <pause dur="0.3"/> an internal audit is where an organization's looking at itself quite critically <pause dur="0.7"/> hopefully quite objectively <pause dur="0.5"/> and # is making up its own mind about whether it's complies with systems that it's meant to be <pause dur="0.4"/> # complying

with <pause dur="2.1"/> and when you do this within a company <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> what you may well do is have the manager of one section <pause dur="0.5"/> # visit another section <pause dur="0.6"/> so that # there's a degree of objectivity <pause dur="0.6"/> because there's an old saying familiarity breeds contempt <pause dur="0.4"/> maybe checking the work you're doing <pause dur="0.4"/> yourself for yourself <pause dur="0.4"/> # there's a very good chance that you don't actually <pause dur="0.4"/> # notice what's obviously wrong <pause dur="0.9"/> so critical internal auditing is <pause dur="0.6"/> it is a business checking itself but ideally <pause dur="0.3"/> you have somebody not directly involved with the operation <pause dur="0.4"/> # auditing it and checking it's <pause dur="0.4"/> it's complying with <pause dur="0.5"/> # the requirements and

schemes of the system <pause dur="8.1"/> the next level i would suggest is the sort of thing we've been talking a lot about on this course and that's # independent scheme schemes like the Assured Produce Scheme <pause dur="0.4"/> and it's # sort of equivalent in the ornamental sector <pause dur="0.4"/> which is BOPP <pause dur="0.8"/> <trunc> b </trunc> British Ornamental Plant Producers Scheme <pause dur="0.3"/> i haven't talked a lot about BOPP so far on this course because <pause dur="0.3"/> the main emphasis has been # with # <pause dur="0.4"/> the Assured Produce Scheme as a model <pause dur="4.4"/> and then finally and <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> # <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> made this clear # <pause dur="0.3"/> back in week # <pause dur="0.3"/> three <pause dur="1.3"/> on top of all the these types of processes which businesses might

indulge themselves in <pause dur="0.9"/> from their own prospective for their own sake <pause dur="0.9"/> you might also expect a customer audit <pause dur="1.4"/> # <pause dur="1.0"/> which and which is <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> i'm here not just simply talking about # large multiple retailers looking at <pause dur="0.4"/> their <pause dur="0.3"/> growers suppliers for example <pause dur="0.5"/> i'm talking about growers themselves <pause dur="0.8"/> perhaps going to look at their suppliers <pause dur="0.6"/> because <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> if <pause dur="0.2"/> schemes like the Assured Produce Scheme <pause dur="1.0"/> # work well <pause dur="2.0"/> producers can assure # <pause dur="0.4"/> that their # <pause dur="1.0"/> customers <pause dur="1.4"/> that anything's in order because they will themselves audited their supply

chain <pause dur="0.4"/> just think for a minute about this Sudan One issue that's in the media at the moment <pause dur="0.4"/> what's gone wrong there is that in the food processing industry <pause dur="0.6"/> # there wasn't enough supply chain <pause dur="0.5"/> auditing people won't checking <pause dur="0.3"/> their suppliers <pause dur="0.3"/> were they using # legal ingredients or not <pause dur="0.8"/> so customer auditing isn't just about multiple retailers looking <pause dur="0.3"/> at growers it's about growers looking at their suppliers as well <pause dur="0.3"/> and being confident that they're complying <pause dur="0.4"/> with the standards that are required <pause dur="0.7"/> </u> <u who="sf1347" trans ="pause"> would customers usually <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> an advance notice of <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> or

would they sort of <pause dur="0.7"/> spring on you see if you were actually <pause dur="1.2"/> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> </u> <u who="nm1346"> <trunc> ty </trunc> typically there is advance <pause dur="0.5"/> # but it it isn't unknown <trunc> f </trunc> <trunc> f </trunc> for # audits to be <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> on people <pause dur="0.5"/> and in fact we've had a discussion this morning about about <pause dur="0.6"/> the fact that perhaps retailers are really more into this <pause dur="0.4"/> # area of actually doing <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> # on the spot audits which which you don't necessarily get any advice really <pause dur="0.5"/> # of <pause dur="0.5"/> so it it does vary <pause dur="0.3"/> yeah <pause dur="0.5"/> but typically <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> it <trunc> th </trunc> there is notice and quite frankly in

terms of good supplier <pause dur="0.2"/> relations <pause dur="0.3"/> <trunc> th </trunc> that should be the primary principle which # you know these sort of things happen </u> <u who="sf1348" trans="pause"> going back to the self audit is it i mean are people really honest when they've been informed like that about how they've done a job and that sort of thing <pause dur="0.6"/> </u> <u who="nm1346" trans ="pause"> well # <pause dur="0.7"/> as i said when people do do that they <unclear> don't have a </unclear> review with their supervisor <pause dur="0.3"/> in fact the way we use that system at <pause dur="0.2"/> # <gap reason="name" extent="2 word"/> <pause dur="0.4"/> is that the <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="1.3"/> the supervisor will go back and look at that <pause dur="0.5"/> product <pause dur="0.3"/> with that individual <pause dur="0.6"/> # because we actually do want

to know whether they got it right or wrong <pause dur="0.4"/> and it's really surprising actually when we introduced that system <pause dur="0.7"/> # it was because <pause dur="0.4"/> a lot of people making a lot of mistakes we weren't expecting them to <pause dur="0.6"/> and # it was because somehow <pause dur="0.5"/> you know it's surprising even some of the most experienced staff still haven't understood why they're doing something <pause dur="0.3"/> and haven't realized the problem with not doing it the way that <pause dur="0.3"/> we would like to be done <pause dur="1.7"/> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> </u> <u who="sf1349"> # # yeah <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> imagine you're doing internal self audit </u> <u who="nm1346"> yeah </u> <u who="sf1349"> do you actually incorporate in terms of feedback systems that you would expect to <pause dur="0.4"/>

# review warning of things going wrong # what whether it be in a fairly minimal way or a fairly major way <pause dur="0.4"/> i mean is is it integrated in you're your systems <pause dur="0.9"/> as a feedback <pause dur="0.9"/> </u> <u who="nm1346" trans ="pause"> yeah i mean that that that <trunc> y </trunc> yes that's very much the point i mean <pause dur="0.5"/> by and large in practice # internal audits aren't just done 'cause they're a good idea they're usually done in preparation for other major external audits and quite often use the same criteria <pause dur="0.4"/> <trunc> s </trunc> <trunc> s </trunc> so # in fact we <pause dur="0.6"/> # # # at <gap reason="name" extent="2 word"/> that's exactly what happens we actually <pause dur="0.5"/> BOPP audit there which which actually # <pause dur="1.0"/> is the basis for internal auditing system as well <pause dur="0.5"/>

</u> <u who="sf1349" trans ="pause"> i was thinking really that you know when you actually implement a system an operational system or processes </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="latching"> yeah </u> <u who="sf1349"> that you <pause dur="0.2"/> tend to design in <pause dur="0.3"/> some sort of feedback mechanism <pause dur="0.5"/> i mean auditing can just be done presumably just to # have advance warning that you're going to pass an external </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="latching"> yeah </u> <u who="sf1349"> you know sort of audit <pause dur="0.3"/> but <trunc> ass </trunc> you know i i would assume that <pause dur="0.3"/> auditing is also done as part of a feedback system to improve the management of this company improve operations </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="overlap"> well now i honestly don't think it was <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> i i no that's what the <trunc> dis </trunc>

the distinction i was trying to make</u> <u who="sf1349" trans="latching"> right </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="overlap"> really i i think it's probably best dealt with as separate <trunc> t </trunc> to to system analysis and system improvement <pause dur="2.0"/> that </u> <u who="sf1349" trans="overlap"> <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/> </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="overlap"> it's it's it's it's a subject it's a subject point <pause dur="0.4"/> yes it's a bit like you remember i said <trunc> t </trunc> to you that <pause dur="0.3"/> in a way although you could combine health and safety <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> risk assessment with H-A-C-C-P-S analysis with with <pause dur="0.5"/> you you tend to wear different hats on <pause dur="1.0"/> you now in in practice that's what i found happens <pause dur="0.4"/> so it does it does tend to

keep itself distinct it doesn't have to be </u> <u who="sf1349"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> there's so much synergy there </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="latching"> yeah yeah </u> <u who="sf1349" trans="overlap"> that you could use the data quite well </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="overlap"> it doesn't have to be but there's there is a tendency and certainly <pause dur="0.3"/> # in my knowledge in terms of fresh the fresh produce sector it does tend to be regarded as a separate discipline <pause dur="0.6"/> where the primary target is just looking to see whether there's compliance or not not <pause dur="0.3"/> not improving <pause dur="0.7"/> okay <pause dur="3.9"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> i just want to reinforce # <pause dur="0.5"/> three things that we've already talked about about because these are all <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/>

audit based <pause dur="0.4"/> # and <pause dur="0.2"/> we should really now <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="1.2"/> # <pause dur="1.0"/> be quite familiar with these <pause dur="0.2"/> the Assured Produce Scheme # which applies to fresh fruit and vegetables which which <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> came along to talk about <pause dur="1.5"/> BOPP <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> British Ornamental Plant # plant Producers Assurance Scheme which applies to the nurseries like <gap reason="name" extent="2 word"/> and indeed to to all the ornamental nurseries we see on this course so far <pause dur="3.4"/> and then <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="3.3"/> i hope it's reasonably clear with you <pause dur="0.4"/> that <pause dur="0.3"/> there is now a European standard and in many ways in the U-K we we had Assured Produce

Scheme which very much proceeded European standards <pause dur="0.4"/> European <trunc> s </trunc> # standards are known as EUREPGAP standards and <pause dur="0.5"/> # # what we find is schemes actually # benchmarking themselves against EUREPGAP standards <pause dur="0.8"/> so in the U-K if if you if you're in the APS <pause dur="0.4"/> scheme then you will also have achieved EUREPGAP standard by default <pause dur="0.6"/> that you also sometimes find <trunc> u </trunc> U-K growers actually going straight to the EUREPGAP standards <pause dur="0.4"/> not actually using the <pause dur="0.4"/> national equivalents but going straight to <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> the European wide <pause dur="0.6"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> agreed protocol <pause dur="4.2"/> in terms of technique then <trunc> an </trunc> and <pause dur="0.3"/> again

<pause dur="0.2"/> # # <pause dur="0.6"/> coming back to to your point here <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> one of the issues about auditing is this idea of being sort of <unclear> play </unclear> cold in a way and objective <pause dur="0.5"/> <trunc> a </trunc> and # <pause dur="0.3"/> in deed <pause dur="0.4"/> # certainly the way that # # # <pause dur="1.1"/> the professional is seen to be trained it it isn't in a particular communicative <pause dur="0.4"/> # # technique that they use in the first instance <pause dur="0.6"/> the key thing is to be impartial and objective <pause dur="0.4"/> and to form <trunc> judge </trunc> form a really a judgement more or less on the spot where you got a lot of the evidence to hand <pause dur="0.7"/> there is specialist training in doing a title of auditing that's required by the likes

of # Assured Produce Scheme <pause dur="0.7"/> and you may or may not be aware that # here at <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> we've got something # known as <pause dur="0.3"/> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> Scientific Services Limited which is <pause dur="0.3"/> # a <trunc> c </trunc> a commercial <pause dur="0.3"/> # body <pause dur="0.4"/> and they specialize in providing # training for auditors <pause dur="0.9"/> and the and the training is extremely # precise in terms of conduct and attitude <pause dur="0.4"/> as well <pause dur="5.4"/> now <pause dur="0.5"/> with something like the Assured Produce Scheme which is trying to audit <pause dur="1.2"/> a very large process as in producing <pause dur="0.3"/> # fruit or vegetable <pause dur="0.5"/> you can't look at every detail in business <pause dur="0.4"/> so when your audits are <pause dur="0.3"/> drawn up <pause dur="0.5"/>

and when they're executed what the auditor is doing is focusing on what are regarded as key performance indicators <pause dur="1.1"/> and <pause dur="0.2"/> for example <pause dur="0.3"/> # something simple like tidiness <pause dur="1.3"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> tidiness in itself is aesthetically quite good <pause dur="0.7"/> but generally people accept that there's # there's some sort of correlation between tidiness and organization <pause dur="1.2"/> okay how organized <pause dur="0.4"/> you are and what you're doing <pause dur="0.6"/> so <pause dur="0.6"/> # some of the issues that looked at <pause dur="0.3"/> can be a little bit cryptic <pause dur="0.6"/> but # they're regarded nonetheless as being a good indicator of how that business operates <pause dur="5.3"/> now <pause dur="0.5"/> you can't look at every operation that's actually happened in the

enterprise in detail <pause dur="0.5"/> so <pause dur="0.2"/> what an auditor will do <pause dur="0.2"/> will <pause dur="0.6"/> # he'll he'll look at sample issues he'll look at for example <pause dur="0.3"/> # a particular batch of tomatoes in a packhouse <pause dur="0.3"/> look at how they've been labelled <pause dur="0.2"/> and see if you can actually <pause dur="0.2"/> trace them all the way back to the person that actually picked them and perhaps the person who has the responsibility for growing the plant <pause dur="1.0"/> so <pause dur="0.2"/> the technique is based on sampling <pause dur="0.6"/> relatively random sampling <pause dur="1.2"/> # <pause dur="1.8"/> and <pause dur="1.3"/> very core to to all of these schemes is this concept of <pause dur="0.4"/> traceablity <pause dur="0.7"/> this idea that <pause dur="0.6"/> # when a consumer a

final consumer buys a product <pause dur="0.6"/> and let's say <pause dur="0.3"/> by some misfortune it is contaminated <pause dur="0.7"/> that retailer can go back to that supplier <pause dur="0.4"/> and find out <pause dur="0.6"/> at which <pause dur="0.5"/> point <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> or rather <pause dur="0.4"/> during the whole production process who would've handled it <pause dur="0.7"/> okay and then you can start to identify <pause dur="0.4"/> # how the contamination happened <pause dur="0.9"/> and <pause dur="0.2"/> # prevent it from happening again <pause dur="2.2"/> and indeed it is true to say <pause dur="0.3"/> # i know many of you not all of you <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> at least those in part two have been to <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> Nursery <pause dur="0.5"/>

they have a system there <pause dur="0.5"/> where <pause dur="0.5"/> you can if you buy # a pack of peppers in in a <pause dur="0.4"/> supermarket <pause dur="0.9"/> they can actually tell you who picked that pepper <pause dur="1.4"/> off off the plant <pause dur="0.5"/> a very precise <pause dur="0.7"/> # data management system <pause dur="0.5"/> # that's that's how that's the level of accuracy it can work to <pause dur="0.2"/> i'm not saying it always does but it's designed to work at that level of accuracy <pause dur="7.2"/> because an audit only happens in one instance in anything from about six months to two years in schemes that we talked about <pause dur="1.0"/> one of the things that the auditor's trying to do <pause dur="0.4"/> is to believe that the arrangements he sees are long term <pause dur="0.9"/> he doesn't want to see that

they've been applied <pause dur="0.5"/> just before he's turned up <pause dur="0.5"/> and he wants to believe that they've got continuity for the future <pause dur="2.0"/> and hence <pause dur="0.5"/> that's why # <pause dur="0.9"/> #when <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> was here you know he talked about i don't know # # # an audit for a multiple retailer # which might involve looking to see if there's dust behind posters and things to see if it's just been put up <pause dur="0.3"/> that is the type of thing auditors do do <pause dur="0.2"/> because they're looking for the permanency and sustained auditing system <pause dur="0.5"/> they mustn't believe it's just been done because they've arrived <pause dur="10.7"/> if you are actually conducting an audit <pause dur="0.2"/> <trunc> qu </trunc> quite often the issues that you will need <pause dur="0.3"/>

# immediate reference sources on <pause dur="0.4"/> and a good example is pesticides pesticides as we know very critical to <pause dur="0.4"/> # # <pause dur="0.8"/> the the whole concept of Assured Produce Scheme <pause dur="0.3"/> that's largely one of the reasons why it was created <pause dur="0.8"/> and so for example one of the areas an auditor would look at in more detail is pesticide store <pause dur="0.4"/> and he needs to be very authoritative as to whether materials you can see in there <pause dur="0.7"/> are legal or not <pause dur="0.6"/> and so he'll probably carry with him <pause dur="0.5"/> sufficient reference sources for him to make on the spot judgement about that <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> <pause dur="7.2"/> right <pause dur="0.2"/> # what i thought i would do because it could become extremely dry just talking

about auditing i thought i'd actually show you <pause dur="0.4"/> # # <pause dur="0.3"/> something about what a BOPP audit would look like if if if <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.9"/> nurseries like you saw last week were being audited now by BOPP <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="0.9"/> what what with the inspector what would the auditor rather actually # look at <pause dur="0.4"/> and <pause dur="0.4"/> # i'm going to show you some pictures in due course but first of all <pause dur="0.4"/> # just a basic summary <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> get you to do <pause dur="0.2"/> # in an office phase of the # audit <pause dur="6.7"/> # it's going to basically # verify that the management records he expects to see in place are there <pause dur="0.5"/> and <pause dur="0.6"/> quite close to the top of his list would be risk assessments <pause dur="0.6"/>

okay <pause dur="0.6"/> # we talked about health and safety we talked about the concept of needing to identify <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.8"/> any any risks that can be associated with a job and any steps that might need to be taken to minimize <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> that risk <pause dur="0.4"/> and there should be if your business has more than six employees <pause dur="0.3"/> there should be a a record of that indeed if you are in one of the schemes we're talking about there needs to be a <trunc> wri </trunc> written record of that to prove it actually happened <pause dur="2.4"/> they'll be looking at policy documents and things like health and safety kind of environmental policy <pause dur="0.5"/> # equal opportunities <pause dur="0.5"/> they need to see that the business has actually worked out how it approaches these these

issues and what it's doing about them <pause dur="6.4"/> they'll be looking for # and again i'm being specific here to to # to BOPP they'll be looking for <pause dur="0.4"/> # a quality manual <pause dur="0.4"/> or at least a comprehensive range of written work procedures <pause dur="0.4"/> the definitive <pause dur="0.6"/> guide to how operations occur on that enterprise <pause dur="4.8"/> and they'll also be looking for evidence of supplier audits <pause dur="0.5"/> now <pause dur="0.6"/> the BOPP scheme <trunc> pr </trunc> # <pause dur="0.2"/> has <pause dur="0.3"/> a very thorough audit <pause dur="0.9"/> and in fact if you subcontract production <pause dur="0.3"/> to other growers they'll expect the same standards to be applied <pause dur="0.3"/> # to the subcontractors <pause dur="0.6"/> they'd also like to see how you're auditing your

suppliers in things like <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> substrates pots <pause dur="0.9"/> labels <pause dur="0.8"/> because <pause dur="0.4"/> a scheme like BOPP isn't so much about # safety it's about assurance that the supplier's capable of delivering the product <pause dur="1.6"/> and if you don't understand <pause dur="0.4"/> the process by which your pots labels substrates come to you <pause dur="0.5"/> there's every chance <pause dur="0.3"/> you might <trunc> s </trunc> suggest <pause dur="0.4"/> that you could have a situation that where stuff doesn't turn up one day <pause dur="0.7"/> and you've got no idea why that could happen <pause dur="0.9"/> okay <pause dur="0.8"/> so it's about assurance of ability to deliver sometimes as much as anything else <pause dur="6.0"/> and then the other thing that # the auditor'll probably look for in the office are

the crop and stock records the the things that # <pause dur="0.2"/> offer the <pause dur="0.3"/> ability to <pause dur="0.2"/> # trace <pause dur="0.5"/> the # progress of the product through the system <pause dur="0.4"/> and allow traceability <pause dur="0.4"/> after the product's been sold as well <pause dur="3.9"/> </u> <u who="sf1347" trans ="pause"> do they expect to have a <trunc> p </trunc> paper record whenever i've worked in other industries they've always wanted a paper </u> <u who="nm1346"> yeah and </u> <u who="sf1347" trans="overlap"> trail rather than in an electronic so that you can prove <u who="nm1346" trans="overlap"> it should be </u> <u who="sf1347" trans="overlap"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> yesterday </u> <u who="nm1346"> yes yes they do </u> <u who="sf1347"> which is a problem <gap reason="overlap" extent="1 sec"/> </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="overlap">

<trunc> a </trunc> and # you know sometimes it's extraordinary # <pause dur="0.5"/> and i know a nursery enterprise that was in process in the middle of audit <pause dur="0.9"/> of spending another <pause dur="0.6"/> three hundred thousand pounds <pause dur="0.4"/> on an irrigation management system to to <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> water recycling <pause dur="0.8"/> and it failed its audit on irrigation management because <pause dur="0.4"/> <trunc> th </trunc> they weren't in a paperwork form that the auditor could actually <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> what was happening <pause dur="0.7"/> </u> <u who="sf1347" trans ="pause"> sometimes it's really difficult to actually find <pause dur="0.3"/> a way of actually recording it </u> <u who="nm1346"> it it is </u> <u who="sf1347" trans="overlap"> in a paper format </u>

<u who="nm1346" trans="overlap"> yeah yeah and so in this stage you'll get guidance to how you actually achieve compliance <pause dur="0.8"/> but you've got to you have to say a lot of it is there <pause dur="0.4"/> to enable an audit to take place <pause dur="0.8"/> and a question which's just coming out of this is hold on a minute isn't this all a bit onerous <pause dur="0.4"/> and the answer is yes <pause dur="0.2"/> why do you think there're so many technical managers in commerce now it's actually to manage this type of activity to a large extent <pause dur="5.9"/> okay i'm going to drop the lights a little bit here 'cause i'm going to show you a few slides of what actually <pause dur="9.0"/> <event desc="turns off lights" iterated="n"/> # what i actually want to looked at # on a on an audit around this nursery which again is <gap reason="name" extent="2 word"/>

<pause dur="0.8"/> one of the obvious places they went to was they look at the chemical store <event desc="puts on transparency" iterated="n"/> # <pause dur="0.8"/> # because this issue of pesticide state of course is <trunc> q </trunc> is quite critical <pause dur="0.6"/> # the types of things they expect to see <pause dur="0.2"/> # will be if the area where chemicals are stored is clearly <pause dur="0.5"/> labelled # <pause dur="1.1"/> if you have # a lot of # a lot of certain different nationality on in your on your site <pause dur="0.2"/> # they expect to see that <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> labelling in all relevant languages so <pause dur="0.3"/> # that's a a step that a lot of the nurseries are addressing at the moment 'cause # they're getting extremely multicultural environments <kinesic desc="changes transparency" iterated="n"/>

<pause dur="2.5"/> looking a bit further in store <pause dur="0.4"/> pesticides you know in our industry are a very critical issue <pause dur="0.5"/> <kinesic desc="indicates screen" iterated="y" dur="unknown"/> and so they'd be going right through the # pesticide cabinet probably and just checking everything there is legal <pause dur="0.7"/> that is the type of thing which a lot of these audits are covering in quite acute detail <pause dur="4.0"/> <kinesic desc="changes transparency" iterated="n"/> now # there are quite a few records that are associated with with # <pause dur="0.5"/> pesticide application <pause dur="0.4"/> but they would need to see up to date <pause dur="0.5"/> # and comprehensive records of # sprays that've been applied to crops and they'd <pause dur="0.3"/> need to believe that there're sufficient detail <pause dur="0.4"/> for <pause dur="0.5"/>

# <pause dur="0.8"/> the <pause dur="1.7"/> # the grower to be able to retrospectively # confirm perhaps what crop had been treated with <kinesic desc="changes transparency" iterated="n"/> <pause dur="3.3"/> of course there is a large degree of legal compliance <pause dur="0.5"/> # in that issue as well <pause dur="1.8"/> most assurance schemes <trunc> adv </trunc> advocate and promote <pause dur="0.4"/> # I-P-M <pause dur="1.8"/> # Integrated Pest Management <pause dur="0.3"/> <kinesic desc="indicates screen" iterated="y" dur="5"/> and so # most protocols now <pause dur="0.4"/> will <pause dur="0.2"/> # # <pause dur="0.3"/> involve <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> standards in terms of pest monitoring <pause dur="0.7"/> and <kinesic desc="indicates screen" iterated="y" dur="2"/> so in BOPP <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/>

what <kinesic desc="indicates screen" iterated="y" dur="3"/> what they need to see is that you actually have # <pause dur="0.2"/> a system <pause dur="0.2"/> for for regular analysis of of pest levels <pause dur="0.5"/> we all know about sticky traps <kinesic desc="indicates screen" iterated="y" dur="10"/> i'm sure <pause dur="0.4"/> # this is the system which i presume most of you are familiar with <pause dur="0.4"/> whereby <pause dur="0.4"/> the sticky trap <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.8"/> has four sheets of paper over it and you peel off a sheet <pause dur="0.6"/> every week so you use it for four weeks <pause dur="0.4"/> and monitor # <pause dur="0.4"/> pest outbreaks across a four week period <pause dur="3.0"/> <kinesic desc="indicates screen" iterated="y" dur="9"/> this is this this is like a key indicator <pause dur="0.6"/>

to to an auditor can they see this type of system in place <pause dur="0.4"/> everywhere that they go to <pause dur="0.3"/> if they can they can believe <pause dur="0.3"/> that probably <pause dur="0.5"/> # a good I-P-M regime's <pause dur="0.2"/> is in place <pause dur="0.7"/> and when they look at a trap like this <pause dur="0.3"/> <kinesic desc="indicates screen" iterated="y" dur="7"/> if they've all just been put up that day it looks like they've been put up for the audit <pause dur="0.4"/> but if if they all have a history of pest <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> upon them then clearly it's a system that's been running for some time <pause dur="1.6"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> when it comes to # mechanized equipment <pause dur="0.5"/> they're going to be looking for # evidence that # there's adequate safety notice <pause dur="1.9"/>

# <pause dur="0.2"/> in this case actually we have got # a bilingual system in actual fact <pause dur="0.5"/> <unclear> no this isn't the quite same because in </unclear> two languages <pause dur="2.0"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> i put this one in because i i # <pause dur="0.4"/> was a bit frustrated about this particular issue <pause dur="1.3"/> we're looking here at a # <pause dur="0.6"/> fridge <pause dur="0.4"/> <kinesic desc="indicates screen" iterated="y" dur="8"/> and i store all my <trunc> s </trunc> semen actually in fridges <pause dur="0.6"/> which which is quite good 'cause i don't hold on to it for very long <pause dur="0.7"/> but actually # <pause dur="10.0"/> i i failed on audit here because i didn't have records of temperatures inside the fridge <pause dur="1.2"/> okay <pause dur="0.3"/> so

that's the type of standards that schemes are actually <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> they are working too <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> <pause dur="5.3"/> and there'll be <pause dur="0.4"/> they'll be overviewing <kinesic desc="indicates screen" iterated="y" dur="unknown"/> the entire <unclear> section </unclear> of the operation just looking for general standards of hygiene cleanliness <pause dur="0.4"/> and and basic organization <pause dur="1.3"/> # <pause dur="2.0"/> before an audit <pause dur="0.8"/> you do basically want to make sure your areas are as clean as possible <pause dur="0.7"/> and <pause dur="0.3"/> anything that is not used you want to make sure it's stored properly as well <pause dur="1.4"/> so <kinesic desc="indicates screen" iterated="y" dur="3"/> <pause dur="0.2"/> # it's now routine <pause dur="0.3"/> on

this nursery to actually # make sure <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> <kinesic desc="indicates screen" iterated="y" dur="4"/> the # <pause dur="1.9"/> compost filling machines <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> machine <pause dur="0.2"/> # are always covered over <pause dur="0.5"/> # when they're not in use because there'll always be some waste <trunc> com </trunc> compost in there <pause dur="0.2"/> which is probably getting dry and could spoil future use <pause dur="7.7"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> climate control is an <trunc> in </trunc> is a critical part of the protective crop production <pause dur="0.4"/> so another good sort of performance indicator that <pause dur="0.2"/> that that a company is managing its climate very carefully <pause dur="0.3"/> will be how their aspirating screens are <kinesic desc="indicates screen" iterated="n"/>

positioned <pause dur="0.9"/> # if you are actually doing a job properly <pause dur="0.2"/> you might expect it to have some reasonable proximity to <pause dur="0.2"/> the plants that you're <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="2.2"/> you're actually growing <pause dur="5.6"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> most assurance schemes as well # <pause dur="0.4"/> will be concerned <pause dur="0.3"/> at # what business are doing to minimize the <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> potential <pause dur="0.4"/> # occurrence of of of pollution environmental pollution <pause dur="0.8"/> and so <pause dur="0.3"/> # in most schemes you will find <pause dur="0.4"/> that <pause dur="0.2"/> # there's a requirement for any oil storage <pause dur="0.2"/> <kinesic desc="indicates screen" iterated="y" dur="9"/> to be in bunded

storage tanks <pause dur="0.4"/> by bunded i mean that what we got here <pause dur="0.2"/> is a system where oil is stored in a tank that is inside a tank <pause dur="0.9"/> so if the inner tank was to rupture <pause dur="0.5"/> the contents wouldn't just spill out into the <pause dur="1.0"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> into into the # <pause dur="0.8"/> <kinesic desc="indicates screen" iterated="n"/> water system <pause dur="1.5"/> that it can actually <pause dur="0.2"/> <kinesic desc="indicates screen" iterated="n"/> hold <pause dur="0.4"/> # a leak <pause dur="0.4"/> it's what we call bunded tank <pause dur="0.7"/> an interesting thing here <pause dur="0.5"/> here is that # in terms of legal compliance <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> farms are excluded from needn't # necessarily have a bunded tank seems a bit bizarre in a way 'cause they seem to be

<pause dur="0.4"/> the type of place where you might well get an oil leak <pause dur="0.7"/> # but the assurance schemes that we've looked at <pause dur="0.4"/> # most of them <pause dur="0.4"/> would require <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.8"/> the operation to keep its oil stored in bunded tanks <pause dur="0.8"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> the alternative <pause dur="0.5"/> and this is # something that # <pause dur="2.4"/> is being addressed in the nursery <pause dur="1.0"/> concerned is to having a unbunded tank so this is just a normal <pause dur="0.3"/> # storage tank <pause dur="0.4"/> <kinesic desc="indicates screen" iterated="y" dur="unknown"/> and if that was to # get ruptured <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> drive into them <pause dur="0.3"/> there would be # an oil spillage incident <pause dur="0.3"/> and the

environment agency would now have to get involved because chances are it would soon end up in a water course <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> <pause dur="3.7"/> okay so that basically # # <pause dur="0.9"/> is what i want to say about auditing i've tried to give you an idea of physically what it might involve in the process <pause dur="0.2"/> it's involved <pause dur="1.2"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> just one thing i want to cover off really # before i finish <trunc> th </trunc> the sort of key quality management systems <pause dur="0.7"/> # i just want to say a little bit more about benchmarking <pause dur="2.2"/> # because it is a slightly different issue to anything we've talked about before <pause dur="0.5"/> before and it is very much # <trunc> th </trunc> <trunc> th </trunc> the sort of # <pause dur="0.2"/> widely accepted concept <pause dur="1.2"/> so while we're

talking about benchmarking what we're talking about is # comparisons and performance between businesses businesses sharing <gap reason="inaudible" extent="2 sec"/> # looking at how well they are performing in terms of efficiency perhaps <pause dur="0.8"/> or perhaps in terms of outlets as well <pause dur="2.8"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> an example from the U-K ornamentals industry is something called Nursery Business Improvement Scheme # <pause dur="0.6"/> which is ruled by a horticultural trades association <pause dur="0.5"/> and in that particular scheme <pause dur="0.5"/> businesses actually <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> submit quite detailed financial data <pause dur="0.5"/> to a third party <pause dur="0.5"/> that then <pause dur="0.2"/> # interprets that data in a way that it can be shared with other members of the scheme <pause dur="0.9"/> and in

fact <pause dur="0.3"/> there's a <pause dur="0.4"/> great deal of honesty # involved in a scheme like that <pause dur="0.5"/> and there're many producers that wouldn't want to get involved <pause dur="0.7"/> because they wouldn't want to share some of their <pause dur="0.2"/> costs with the other other businesses <pause dur="0.6"/> you tend to find that the larger a business is <pause dur="1.0"/> the more reserved it is about that type of information 'cause large businesses often benefit from extremely low costs from suppliers <pause dur="0.6"/> and they would jeopardize this investment <gap reason="inaudible due to noise from audience" extent="1 sec"/> if they were to publish exactly how much they were paying <pause dur="1.5"/> but benchmarking can also look at <pause dur="0.6"/> # the physical performance of a business <pause dur="0.2"/> efficiency

operations <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> how efficient # <pause dur="0.5"/> potting might be going or tomato picking <pause dur="0.9"/> something like that but can look at # physical parameters as well as financial ones <pause dur="3.3"/> and one of the reasons why # they are probably undergoing <pause dur="1.6"/> quite a quite a <pause dur="1.5"/> <trunc> p </trunc> <trunc> p </trunc> popularity at the moment is that # there is <pause dur="0.2"/> # quite a lot of funding in the U-K available for businesses that want to get into benchmarking schemes <pause dur="0.5"/> the government recognizes that it's one way of actually <pause dur="0.3"/> # supporting <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> U-K enterprise and and big leap forwards <pause dur="0.2"/> so the department of trade and industry for example <pause dur="0.2"/> # offers quite significant funding

<pause dur="0.4"/> and <pause dur="0.3"/> opportunity for businesses that want to get together and compare performance <pause dur="3.4"/> okay <pause dur="1.2"/> now like i said we've really covered the core part of quality management on this course next week i'm going to talk about a little bit about # financial management <pause dur="0.6"/> # <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> and there are <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> three discussion points that i want to put you <pause dur="0.4"/> and i'm going to <pause dur="0.3"/> basically put them up now <pause dur="0.7"/> and when we <pause dur="3.4"/> when we # looked at we'll then take a break and then i'll see if if <trunc> y </trunc> if there's anything that # <pause dur="0.7"/> we <trunc> c </trunc> we can actually derive from all these # these issues <pause dur="2.4"/> first point put to you

is <pause dur="1.2"/> have # assurance schemes such as Assured Produce Scheme <pause dur="0.3"/> really <pause dur="0.3"/> improved your confidence <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> <pause dur="0.6"/> okay <pause dur="0.3"/> <trunc> ha </trunc> have they contributed an improvement in consumer confidence in product quality <pause dur="0.8"/> we've talked about these extremely onerous systems but you're the consumer <pause dur="0.4"/> do you think it's made any difference <pause dur="1.0"/> okay i'll ask you just to think about that would you argue yes would you argue no <pause dur="0.4"/> if the argument is no then has it really been worthwhile <pause dur="5.9"/> do quality management systems stifle innovation <pause dur="0.7"/> if quality management is about describing exactly how you are going to do something and then you're going to be audited

to check that you do it exactly that way <pause dur="1.4"/> is that stifling innovation what about the employee that says <pause dur="0.4"/> hold on a moment what if i do it this way <pause dur="3.0"/> can that really happen you've got <pause dur="0.3"/> a rigorous quality management regime <pause dur="0.8"/> what do you think <pause dur="5.2"/> and <pause dur="1.8"/> i wonder <pause dur="0.7"/> if one of the themes that we've had it was here when <gap reason="name" extent="2 word"/> was here it was coming up today <pause dur="1.0"/> # yes we've talked about systems can be quite paperwork intensive <pause dur="0.4"/> that can generate a workload of their own <pause dur="1.4"/> so do you think that all these systems that we've talked about <pause dur="1.3"/> are truly sustainable in a medium size business <pause dur="1.9"/> a very large business <pause dur="0.6"/>

probably has to do no more paperwork than medium or small size businesses in many cases <pause dur="0.6"/> so it's the smaller and medium size businesses that bear the burden <pause dur="1.6"/> in terms of proportion of their time <pause dur="1.0"/> to achieve some of the standards we talked about do you think that's sustainable <pause dur="1.8"/> well i'm going to <pause dur="0.3"/> just throw those questions back at you after you've had a bit of break okay and # we'll see what we come up with <pause dur="0.5"/> but we'll take # a ten minute break now </u> <gap reason="break in recording" extent="uncertain"/> <u who="nm1346"> first of all <pause dur="0.7"/> i put it to you <pause dur="0.2"/> what shall we do with this first one do you think <pause dur="0.6"/> that for all the schemes <pause dur="0.3"/> you as consumers feel any safer now what you're

eating or buying <pause dur="0.4"/> </u> <u who="su1357" trans ="pause"> no </u> <u who="su1358"> i don't know </u> <u who="su1357"> no </u> <u who="sf1348"> i don't think </u> <u who="su1357" trans="overlap"> they don't see it do they </u> <u who="sf1348"> i don't think joe public knows what an assurance scheme is <pause dur="0.3"/> </u> <u who="nm1346" trans ="pause"> right <pause dur="0.4"/> do you think they're supposed to or do you think it's just for the supermarkets and retailers <pause dur="2.0"/> </u> <u who="sf1348" trans ="pause"> i think it's another <pause dur="1.2"/> crowbar <trunc> f </trunc> <trunc> f </trunc> for the supermarkets to place on the producers <pause dur="1.0"/> </u> <u who="nm1346" trans ="pause"> right <pause dur="0.5"/> </u> <u who="sf1350" trans ="pause"> but shouldn't the public know 'cause they put those little tractor symbols i thought that's for the public

to know <pause dur="0.4"/> </u> <u who="nm1346" trans ="pause"> yes </u> <u who="sf1348"> well it is </u> <u who="sf1350" trans="overlap"> but they they they haven't but they haven't been # educated </u> <u who="su1357"> no </u> <u who="sf1350"> in the actual meaning of it </u> <u who="sf1348"> no # </u> <u who="sf1351"> presumably a lot comes off their own backs </u> <u who="nm1346"> yeah </u> <u who="sm1352"> # i i think they use a lot of confusion # among the public about what <trunc> s </trunc> such schemes involved and about the logos of these schemes <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 word"/> </u> <u who="nm1346"> yeah </u> <u who="sm1352"> i think # <pause dur="0.5"/> most of the public is not # adequately informed </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="latching"> yes </u> <u who="sm1352"> about # <pause dur="1.0"/> exact procedures of such schemes <pause dur="1.0"/> </u> <u who="nm1346" trans ="pause"> i

think you are right <pause dur="0.4"/> <trunc> a </trunc> and <pause dur="0.6"/> one of the problems that <gap reason="name" extent="2 word"/> emphasized when he came here to talk about the Assured Produce Scheme <pause dur="0.4"/> was the budget that's involved to promote a logo like that so people understand what the values are supposed to be behind it <pause dur="0.6"/> # a lot of people think that the # tractor logo means that # as you said it's <pause dur="0.6"/> the public think that it means that the product has been produced in the U-K and that isn't necessarily true <pause dur="0.5"/> it means it's it's actually been produced under a system which matches the Assured Produce standard which is British British based <pause dur="0.5"/> scheme that could've been produced in Spain Portugal wherever <pause dur="0.7"/> </u> <u who="sf1349" trans ="pause"> <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/> </u>

<u who="nm1346" trans="overlap"> so sorry <pause dur="1.0"/> </u> <u who="sf1349" trans ="pause"> <trunc> ha </trunc> the other thing is that # is the purpose of the schemes <trunc> h </trunc> was it was the purpose of the schemes to actually <pause dur="0.2"/> boost consumer confidence or was it to provide as we saw this morning in the food act # sort of some <pause dur="0.3"/> risk # <trunc> a </trunc> assessment so that # retailers have # you know can actually prove what's been happening right the way down the chain for him to put on the spot for some reason or another i mean what was the purpose of the scheme is it for the consumer or is it for the retailer <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> </u> <u who="nm1346"> well going back to what <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> said a few weeks ago <pause dur="0.4"/>

# it it originated because supermarkets created their own diverse standards <pause dur="0.6"/> but what they why were they doing that it was because they're trying to build their own brand identities <pause dur="0.8"/> and it seems to me that <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.9"/> the Assured Produce Scheme it might rationalize those standards but <pause dur="0.6"/> doesn't assist the supermarket to build up its brand identity <pause dur="0.7"/> i think what's happened here is what brand that is in the supermarket has remained far more important than <pause dur="0.3"/> than a general <pause dur="0.4"/> brand <pause dur="0.6"/> so <trunc> y </trunc> we've not seen for example supermarkets investment <pause dur="0.4"/> to any <pause dur="0.2"/> large degree <pause dur="0.3"/> in promoting that scheme any further they would rather perhaps that you

believe that Tescos Marks and Spencers <pause dur="0.2"/> Waitrose whoever <pause dur="1.2"/> that it is what they do uniquely to their product which makes it potentially better than <pause dur="0.7"/> product from elsewhere would you would you agree with that's probably what's happening here <pause dur="0.8"/> i think <pause dur="0.9"/> you know <pause dur="0.4"/> <trunc> th </trunc> there isn't a consensus to try and build a sort of general brand of of assurance <pause dur="0.8"/> that actually stands on its own two feet <pause dur="2.8"/> </u> <u who="sf1348" trans ="pause"> yeah </u> <u who="nm1346" trans ="overlap"> <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/> </u> <u who="sf1348" trans ="overlap"> i think that's right </u> <u who="nm1346" trans ="overlap"> <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/> </u> <u who="sf1348" trans ="overlap">

'cause i 'cause i don't think you i don't think you would get <pause dur="1.7"/> J-S Tescos <pause dur="0.7"/> Waitrose and Somerfield to all appear to agree <pause dur="1.6"/> on the same thing unless it was <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.8"/> safety they would all say our products are safe <pause dur="0.5"/> </u> <u who="nm1346" trans ="pause"> yeah <pause dur="0.9"/> </u> <u who="sf1348" trans ="pause"> but they wouldn't say our product is the same as Marks and Spencers or <pause dur="0.5"/> </u> <u who="sm1355" trans ="pause"> they all </u> <u who="sf1348" trans="overlap"> J-S <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/> </u> <u who="sm1355" trans ="overlap"> want to appear to have better quality </u> <u who="sf1348" trans ="overlap"> yes </u> <u who="sm1355" trans ="overlap"> products than the others so they are not all agree <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/>

</u> <u who="sf1348" trans ="overlap"> i mean Waitrose adverts for instance are very different from <pause dur="0.6"/> # <trunc> magaz </trunc> media <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> # very different from # J-S adverts <pause dur="0.3"/> </u> <u who="nm1346" trans ="pause"> yeah </u> <u who="sf1348"> and that's because they're trying to say that </u> <u who="nm1346"> different image </u> <u who="sf1348" trans="latching"> yeah </u> <u who="nm1346"> yeah <pause dur="0.9"/> yeah so it it seems to me that really # whereas this sort of process is always going to go back i mean going background anyway <pause dur="0.5"/> and it's been a certain amount of rationalize behind the scenes we've not ended up with something which gives you <pause dur="0.7"/> the consumer any <pause dur="0.4"/> great assurance that perhaps the brand of supermarket you

are buying from <pause dur="0.4"/> is that is that a reasonable summary <pause dur="0.6"/> </u> <u who="sm1354" trans ="pause"> it looks like one of the issues with it though is # no matter how much you have these assurance quality assurance schemes you only need one episode like B-S-E or salmonella in eggs </u> <u who="nm1346"> yeah </u> <u who="sm1354"> and it <trunc> a </trunc> actually <trunc> kn </trunc> <trunc> kn </trunc> knocked a whole <pause dur="0.5"/> concept of it <pause dur="0.2"/> you know out out the water really and and now we've got the Sudan One issue so <pause dur="0.2"/> you know even with all these schemes in at the end of the day doesn't really boost your confidence as a consumer that there's not something else going on that someone hasn't thought about yet <pause dur="0.3"/> </u> <u who="nm1346" trans ="pause"> yeah <pause dur="0.4"/> so in practice then do you think

there was ever any room for this anyway as a consumer where you're going to primarily loyal <pause dur="0.4"/> to a supermarket brand for for quality or were you going to be ever be able to <pause dur="0.8"/> be more convinced by a <pause dur="0.3"/> little red tractor <pause dur="1.3"/> what do you think <pause dur="2.0"/> </u> <u who="sm1354" trans ="pause"> <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/> </u> <u who="sf1348" trans="overlap"> well i don't know # </u> <u who="sm1354" trans="overlap"> <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/> price aren't they <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/> tractor </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="overlap"> i mean </u> <u who="sf1348" trans="overlap"> by # as # hopefully i'm an educated consumer and if i see <pause dur="0.5"/> # two pieces of chicken and if one's got a little red tractor on it

and the other hasn't <pause dur="0.3"/> then i'll buy the one with the little red tractor on it </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="latching"> yeah </u> <u who="sf1348"> but i think most people are guided by price </u> <u who="nm1346"> yeah </u> <u who="ss"> <gap reason="inaudible, multiple speakers" extent="1 sec"/> </u> </u> <u who="sm1355"> i'd i'd go by the brand that the # actual supermarket </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="latching"> yeah </u> <u who="sf1348" trans="overlap"> i think though # primarily <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> </u> <u who="sm1355" trans="latching"> yeah </u> <u who="ss"> <gap reason="inaudible, multiple speakers" extent="1 sec"/> </u> <u who="nm1346"> and so what we haven't done </u> <u who="sm1355" trans="overlap"> <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/> quality <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="overlap"> we haven't

discredited the process we've just questioned the way it might present itself </u> <u who="ss"> <gap reason="inaudible, multiple speakers" extent="1 sec"/> </u> <u who="sf1349" trans="overlap"> the only difference the only # # # just open it up perhaps i'm just <pause dur="0.6"/> questioning whether perhaps <trunc> or </trunc> the organic assurance <pause dur="0.7"/> # label if you like <pause dur="0.3"/> does have <pause dur="1.4"/> # more edge than those i mean i think if i went into a supermarket <pause dur="0.8"/> i would be buying potentially organic <pause dur="0.4"/> from any supermarket you'll know that that's organic <pause dur="0.4"/> # rather than Tesco's organic or Sainsbury's organic so i think the organic label actually works </u> <u who="su1357"> yeah <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> </u> <u who="sf1349" trans="overlap"> in terms of consumer

confidence even if it's # <pause dur="0.2"/> you know it's questionable i think it actually works </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="overlap"> i think it works for that section </u> <u who="sf1349" trans="latching"> yeah exactly </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="overlap"> of of of the market that it's that it's that it appeals to </u> <u who="sf1349"> but that i mean your question is about consumer confidence i think </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="latching"> yes </u> <u who="sf1349"> it's the organic from # the section of the market that it appeals to it actually does work whereas </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="latching"> yeah </u> <u who="sf1349" trans="overlap"> i don't think the other assurance schemes necessarily do </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="latching"> yeah </u> <u who="sf1349"> it it it's <trunc> consu </trunc> # you know <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> </u> <u who="nm1346"> yeah and perhaps their values aren't clear enough </u>

<u who="sf1349"> # </u> <u who="nm1346"> yeah </u> <u who="sf1349"> perhaps </u> <u who="nm1346"> yes </u> <u who="sf1348"> you don't see when you walk around any of the supermarkets you don't see anything about little red tractor other than the sticker on the on the produce </u> <u who="nm1346"> yeah <pause dur="0.8"/> right fair <trunc> c </trunc> fair <trunc> c </trunc> fair comment okay i think we have actually aired that and got some interesting perspectives <pause dur="0.4"/> i have got my own view on this do they stifle innovation quality management schemes <pause dur="0.4"/> yeah </u> <u who="ss"> <gap reason="inaudible, multiple speakers" extent="1 sec"/> </u> <u who="sm1354"> i think that the fact that they do is why while you're running a T-Q-M system you often then have to <trunc> s </trunc> set in place something else <pause dur="0.3"/> like quality improvement circles where

<pause dur="0.3"/> you can look at other ways of doing it and that's because you actually stifle the <pause dur="0.85"/> the the <trunc> innova </trunc> # innovative <pause dur="0.8"/> </u> <u who="nm1346" trans ="pause"> yes </u> <u who="sm1354"> thought processes that would normally go on in any system <pause dur="0.3"/> </u> <u who="nm1346" trans ="pause"> do you all agree with that basically </u> <u who="sf1349"> no </u> <u who="nm1346"> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> you don't agree </u> <u who="sf1349"> i don't agree i actually think that if you've got a really good sorry there's # </u> <u who="sm1354"> no that's okay </u> <u who="sf1349"> i think if you've got a really good quality management system it actually builds in as as you <kinesic desc="indicates member of audience" iterated="n"/> were intimating <pause dur="0.6"/> that innovative aspect to it it's the design of the

quality </u> <u who="sf1347" trans="overlap"> <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/> build in the flexibility </u> <u who="sf1349" trans="overlap"> yeah you can build it in </u> <u who="sf1347" trans="overlap"> allow people to suggest and make changes <pause dur="1.0"/> </u> <u who="nm1346" trans ="pause"> i've got to say in practice i i'm not <trunc> convin </trunc> i i </u> <u who="sf1349" trans="overlap"> in practice i am convinced 'cause i 'cause i i've seen it done not in </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="latching"> yeah </u> <u who="sf1349" trans="overlap"> horticulture </u> <u who="nm1346"> no i i haven't really seen it convincingly done in horticulture </u> <u who="sf1349"> no i i couldn't have that experience </u> <u who="sf1348"> i think it <trunc> st </trunc> i think it stifles <pause dur="0.3"/> innovation from <pause dur="0.4"/> the bottom <pause dur="0.2"/>

up <pause dur="1.3"/> i think if somebody in <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="1.3"/> if somebody <pause dur="0.7"/> who is paid to look at or a part of their job is to look at the system <pause dur="0.6"/> to develop it change it whatever <pause dur="0.2"/> i don't think it stops innovation there because alongside a good quality management system you need systems to analyze your own systems </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="latching"> yeah </u> <u who="sf1348"> if that makes sense but i think what it does stop i think what especially <trunc> t </trunc> T-Q-M stops is anything you know one of your workers coming up and <trunc> s </trunc> one of the people that actually physically does the job day after day and says if you give me a bread basket this deep <kinesic desc="indicates size with hands" iterated="n"/> <pause dur="0.4"/> and i'll stand on that that'll make my job so

much easier </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="latching"> yeah </u> <u who="sf1348"> and i mean you don't give them a bread basket you'll give them you know <pause dur="0.5"/> but i think it stops that </u> <u who="nm1346"> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> <kinesic desc="indicates audience member" iterated="n"/> </u> <u who="sf1356"> # for <trunc> m </trunc> my personal <pause dur="0.7"/> # <trunc> ex </trunc> experience # the quality management systems they don't tell you how to do things they only want you to have records <pause dur="0.2"/> of what work you're doing </u> <u who="sf1348" trans="latching"> mm </u> <u who="sf1356"> and if your if your employee wants a basket this deep <kinesic desc="indicates size with hands" iterated="n"/> or something you'll write <pause dur="0.2"/> that he should # he should have this basket this deep <kinesic desc="indicates size with hands" iterated="n"/>

to do him her his work or something </u> <u who="sf1348" trans="latching"> yeah </u> <u who="sf1356"> like that </u> <u who="sf1348"> yes i can see where you're coming from </u> <u who="sf1356"> so if it is in in your # work # </u> <u who="sf1348"> work instruction </u> <u who="sf1356"> instruction it's okay </u> <u who="sf1348"> yeah but i think having having worked in a large organization that's total that was total quality quality management you were almost brainwashed into <pause dur="0.8"/> this this is an audit point that's an audit point and that's not a <trunc> p </trunc> audit point and it was that always to make sure that all these things are constantly correct and the paperwork is always right <pause dur="0.4"/> and the tagging is always right and there mustn't be any gaps between this and this and you're so busy concentrating on these

things that i don't think it gives the people that don't that do the job i don't think they think about it </u> <u who="sf1347" trans="overlap"> i think that's the fault of <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> and you take the staff somewhere give them time to actually </u> <u who="nm1346"> <trunc> c </trunc> can i just <pause dur="0.9"/> i mean just to try an tie the two targets together here actually <pause dur="0.9"/> my experience is that # what where things can go wrong is very much in your middle and lower management where <pause dur="0.4"/> you've got supervisors that become preoccupied with meeting the system requirements that they they they take a direct personal responsibility and stifling <pause dur="0.6"/> very much innovation because i think that does tend to happen </u> <u who="sf1348" trans="latching"> mm </u> <u who="nm1346"> but on the other hand if you've

got good quality management systems and if you're in a position where you know how to actually influence how it's done <pause dur="0.7"/> you can <pause dur="0.3"/> potentially plan <trunc> th </trunc> that change a lot more effectively <pause dur="0.5"/> because you've got the way of communicating that change right through the system </u> <u who="sf1349"> actually you've <trunc> s </trunc> i think you've actually hit on the button it's all about communication than anything else </u> <u who="nm1346"> yeah in practice i think <pause dur="0.3"/> they do tend to stifle <pause dur="0.5"/> innovation at at at the most junior levels in the organization <pause dur="0.3"/> they wouldn't if if if if <pause dur="0.8"/> if the middle management <trunc> sy </trunc> system worked properly but in practice i really think they do <pause dur="0.4"/> that's my

personal experience <trunc> an </trunc> and that's in the food sector and the ornamental sector horticulture i'm thinking of but yes from my point of view i know you know as a technical manager that if i if i <trunc> s </trunc> if i want to make a change <pause dur="0.3"/> now within a <trunc> s </trunc> framework we've got operating at somewhere like <gap reason="name" extent="2 word"/> <pause dur="1.0"/> it's probably a <trunc> lo </trunc> a <trunc> lo </trunc> much easier to effect quite a major change in how <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> can do anything than what it used to be <pause dur="0.6"/> because the system's there to make it <pause dur="0.3"/> automatically happen <pause dur="1.9"/> so it's an interesting question i think and it and certainly <pause dur="0.3"/> # an argument that many people do use against <pause dur="0.7"/> # application systems but

# i think you'd agree it's about communication more than anything else <pause dur="0.6"/> yeah </u> <u who="su1357"> yeah </u> <u who="nm1346"> maybe <pause dur="0.5"/> <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> </u> <pause dur="1.0"/> <u who="sm1354" trans="pause"> # actually i'll be quoting on this <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> a big organization it's much more difficult </u> <u who="nm1346"> it's yeah it does become difficult yeah </u> <u who="sm1354" trans="overlap"> you have to then <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> you know <pause dur="0.2"/> pull together twenty thirty people to discuss one small change because everyone has to change their <pause dur="0.3"/> documentation about how something's going to be done <pause dur="0.3"/> and what boxes you're going to tick <pause dur="0.5"/> <trunc> s </trunc> so maybe in a small organization it's more flexible i

think the big organization it it <pause dur="0.2"/> kills innovation </u> <u who="nm1346"> yeah <pause dur="1.0"/> okay <pause dur="0.8"/> yes # this course is because # quality management business communications actually # # partly because of the the nature of that issue <pause dur="1.0"/> okay # <pause dur="1.8"/> so how sustainable you're now we're not <pause dur="0.7"/> a a big <pause dur="0.7"/> # # organization <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> perhaps smaller growers whatever <pause dur="0.7"/> do <trunc> y </trunc> does it seem sustainable to you do you think that <pause dur="0.5"/> # generally <pause dur="0.6"/> what we talked about you could practically do in an enterprise of <pause dur="0.8"/> twenty or so people <pause dur="3.2"/> <kinesic desc="indicates size with hands" iterated="n"/> what do you think <pause dur="6.4"/> do you believe in it <pause dur="0.7"/>

what we've been talking about <pause dur="1.0"/> </u> <u who="sf1348" trans ="pause"> i think it's a fact of life </u> <u who="sf1356" trans="overlap"> <gap reason="inaudible due to overlap" extent="1 sec"/> so if you have to do it </u> <u who="nm1346"> yeah this <trunc> i </trunc> that's # the second answer twice isn't it really <pause dur="0.7"/> is it <trunc> i </trunc> <trunc> i </trunc> if that if that's all there is to it it is a bit sad isn't it <pause dur="0.5"/> we'd like to believe that it's actually going to be <pause dur="0.3"/> good <pause dur="0.7"/> for us and i think actually <pause dur="0.7"/> in many cases it is # <pause dur="0.7"/> actually i think the BOPP scheme's a good scheme <pause dur="0.6"/> i think it does help </u> <u who="sf1349" trans="overlap"> i think there's what it boils down to is whether the the scheme actually enables you to improve

<pause dur="0.4"/> # the system so that it won't runs more efficiently </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="latching"> yeah </u> <u who="sf1349"> if your operations if by putting in an assured scheme means that your operations and processes and management <pause dur="0.6"/> improves then it's good for the organization </u> <u who="nm1346"> yeah </u> <u who="sf1349"> it depends on the <trunc> own </trunc> you know how onerous it is really </u> <u who="nm1346"> yeah </u> <u who="sf1348"> i think if you're <pause dur="0.2"/> # i think if you're a new <pause dur="0.6"/> producer of whatever <pause dur="1.6"/> # and you're starting from the very beginning in it that at this time now <pause dur="0.6"/> then <pause dur="0.3"/> your production has to have <pause dur="0.6"/> quality <pause dur="0.8"/> management <pause dur="0.3"/> schemes <trunc> t </trunc> and you will have to be <pause dur="0.4"/>

# audited by somebody <pause dur="0.5"/> and the expensive bit is setting up setting up the the systems <pause dur="0.4"/> and i think <pause dur="0.9"/> once you're running and everything's okay <pause dur="0.4"/> then <pause dur="0.2"/> relatively <pause dur="0.3"/> audits are a just <pause dur="0.2"/> any # are just # any expense that everybody has to build in <pause dur="0.3"/> but it's if you're an old producer <pause dur="0.5"/> that has to change over to these schemes i think that's when you it gets very expensive </u> <u who="nm1346"> okay to round this up <gap reason="inaudible due to noise from audience " extent="1 sec"/> today </u> <u who="sf1348" trans="latching"> mm </u> <u who="nm1346" trans="overlap"> and the other thing i would say as well i have mentioned <unclear> slightly </unclear> the cost of compliance <pause dur="0.4"/> it is in large

organization's interests <pause dur="0.6"/> to make the requirements more and more demanding 'cause they could probably execute them <pause dur="0.2"/> more efficiently than smaller organizations <pause dur="1.6"/> okay <pause dur="0.3"/> good well that sort of rounds off # quality management i want to move on to # cover <pause dur="0.5"/> # really some just background information <pause dur="0.3"/> about <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> # staff training it's not something i want to cover in a great deal <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> of detail but really just so it's there <pause dur="0.4"/> <trunc> t </trunc> to fit in the picture we might do the exercise at the end we might not depending on how time goes <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> but # <pause dur="0.4"/> here we go <pause dur="0.6"/> okay <pause dur="0.5"/> so # <pause dur="4.8"/>

from a business perspective <pause dur="1.2"/> # <pause dur="0.9"/> there's there's really two two <pause dur="0.3"/> types of <pause dur="0.3"/> # training issue <pause dur="0.6"/> firstly there's immediate on the job training <pause dur="0.5"/> basically enabling somebody to do what you're asking them to do <pause dur="0.6"/> # showing them how to do the job <pause dur="2.0"/> and then there's the more strategic <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> what we call in this country vocational training <pause dur="1.0"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> which actually # is formalized <pause dur="1.0"/> you you wouldn't typically wait for someone to be # formally trained before they could do a job <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="1.9"/> apart from in certain circumstances like forklift driving and pesticide application <pause dur="0.3"/> i'm thinking here though of more general <pause dur="0.2"/>

# formal qualifications <pause dur="5.4"/> and <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> just a just a general sort of # <pause dur="1.3"/> thought really <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="1.0"/> nowadays # in commerce we talk about <pause dur="0.3"/> human resource management # H-R management <pause dur="0.4"/> which # is good <pause dur="0.4"/> but <pause dur="0.2"/> # sometimes <pause dur="0.6"/> it seems to me that <pause dur="0.3"/> in a way it's # this whole idea of H-R management <pause dur="0.6"/> is actually potentially dehumanizing <pause dur="0.8"/> # the workplace <pause dur="0.6"/> # because it's almost taking making <pause dur="0.5"/> # what people are doing and sort of clinically categorizing it does that sort of make sense <pause dur="0.4"/> and i think that is a bit of risk <pause dur="0.2"/> when we when we # <pause dur="0.6"/> you know

sometimes we talk about these issues that # we just you know it can be a bit clinical just talking about people as a component of the production system <pause dur="0.7"/> now that's not the intention generally <pause dur="0.4"/> but i've been to a lot of seminar's about training in the workplace and that's how sometimes it's ended up sounding <pause dur="0.4"/> so i'm just pointing out that's a bit of risk <pause dur="0.3"/> # 'cause we are talking about people here <pause dur="3.7"/> now # <pause dur="0.3"/> this # you don't need to worry about looking at this 'cause i've given it to you on your handout # <pause dur="1.0"/> if you look at # <pause dur="0.3"/> i think it's probably the last sheet i gave you <pause dur="3.5"/> # it's the same same detail <pause dur="0.5"/> but there's quite a lot of confusion now in the U-K at least about # how qualifications <pause dur="0.3"/>

relate to each other <pause dur="0.5"/> and i do want to just briefly <pause dur="0.3"/> # actually give you some detail <pause dur="0.5"/> about # <pause dur="0.3"/> where they all fit in <pause dur="0.8"/> firstly i want to suggest to you in the U-K and across Europe there are similar sort of # principles <pause dur="0.4"/> we have <pause dur="0.3"/> # what we call the vocational qualifications which are typically workplace based <pause dur="0.2"/> and done by people actually working in an enterprise <pause dur="1.7"/> academic qualifications like <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> we have here and then there are certain qualifications which seem to me at least to come <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> broadly speaking into the middle <pause dur="1.7"/> and then starting on the vocational side the government has identified <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="1.0"/>

achievement levels <pause dur="0.2"/> # one to five <pause dur="0.7"/> and <pause dur="0.2"/> these are <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> first of all <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> what we call in the U-K <pause dur="0.2"/> national vocational qualifications N-V-Qs <pause dur="1.4"/> but these achievement levels should have parallels <pause dur="0.3"/> across the other <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.9"/> qualification systems too <pause dur="1.3"/> and so <pause dur="0.3"/> # the basic idea really of # vocational qualifications <pause dur="0.6"/> is that N-V-Q one and N-V-Q level two <pause dur="0.7"/> are workplace based <pause dur="0.9"/> # qualifications <pause dur="0.6"/> where people in a workplace <pause dur="0.5"/> ideally or they may go # to college or they <trunc> m </trunc> be be based at college <pause dur="1.8"/> # the idea

is you can achieve this in a workplace <pause dur="0.7"/> and N-V-Q level one and level two <pause dur="0.3"/> there're aimed very much at the general employee <pause dur="0.3"/> okay so it's they are qualifications which anybody in the prospective business that their that their qualification's covering it might be commercial horticulture for example <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> <trunc> w </trunc> potential benefit <pause dur="0.4"/> from receiving that level of of of # training and achieving that type of qualification being a business <pause dur="0.4"/> and an individual's strategic interest <pause dur="1.7"/> N-V-Q level three across all industries is aimed at <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> supervisors really <pause dur="0.5"/> at team leaders and supervisors <pause dur="0.7"/> and then N-V-Q level four and N-V-Q level five <pause dur="0.6"/>

# are moving on to <pause dur="0.4"/> junior and senior management level <pause dur="0.4"/> # qualifications <pause dur="1.8"/> so in the U-K we have N-V-Qs there are <pause dur="0.3"/> similar equivalents around Europe <pause dur="0.4"/> and we have them arranged into <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> five levels <pause dur="0.7"/> and there are # <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="2.2"/> # # <pause dur="0.2"/> other professional qualifications which perhaps <pause dur="0.3"/> go beyond the level five <pause dur="0.5"/> and are generally recognized as being perhaps a step further and things like # diploma from the institute of management <pause dur="0.4"/> and # <pause dur="0.7"/> similar qualifications <pause dur="2.0"/> and then we have the academic qualifications <pause dur="2.4"/> # # and <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> at level two equivalent <pause dur="0.5"/>

# we've got things like G-C-S-Es and you can do a G-C-S-E in horticulture or rural skills <pause dur="1.4"/> # along with other G-C-S-Es at the same time and there're equated to the sort of level two on workplace qualification <pause dur="0.7"/> at level three which is a supervisory level qualification the sort of equivalent is <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> A levels <pause dur="0.9"/> # you can do A level horticulture although very few colleges <pause dur="0.5"/> # offer it <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> many of you will have done A level botany <pause dur="1.0"/> and then B-S-C within the <pause dur="0.2"/> # general scheme of things <pause dur="0.7"/> is identified at being <pause dur="0.2"/> at <pause dur="1.3"/> level four or arguably # into # level <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> five <pause dur="1.0"/> and the N-S-C <trunc> w </trunc>

might be quoted to <pause dur="0.4"/> to to level five <pause dur="0.7"/> the idea is then that <pause dur="1.2"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> with the this sort of scheme of thinking <pause dur="0.8"/> in a workplace <pause dur="0.3"/> you might # achieve a similar level of achievement <pause dur="1.5"/> to what you might do through a purely academic route <pause dur="0.5"/> okay there are different types of achievement <pause dur="0.6"/> but the achievement might nonetheless be recognized as being <pause dur="0.7"/> at a similar level <pause dur="0.8"/> does that make sense <pause dur="1.0"/> # got a few intermediate qualifications in the U-K <pause dur="0.6"/> and a lot of these are organized by a body called Edexcel <pause dur="0.7"/> # and <pause dur="0.2"/> they're known as # <pause dur="0.4"/> things like # first diplomas and national diplomas <pause dur="1.5"/> and i have

fitted them into the picture too <pause dur="1.6"/> and the other sort of # <pause dur="0.3"/> <trunc> co </trunc> # complicating # factor of things like first degrees <pause dur="0.9"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> you could have argued a first degree <pause dur="0.4"/> is probably # a level three type of qualification <pause dur="0.6"/> which then <pause dur="0.6"/> # might be converted <pause dur="0.4"/> ultimately into a <pause dur="0.5"/> full degree by going to the final year of a full degree course <pause dur="1.4"/> so it's quite a quagmire of <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> qualifications in the U-K <pause dur="0.5"/> but the idea of this chart is to give you some idea of equivalents and where they how they <pause dur="0.3"/> actually <pause dur="0.7"/> # relate to each other <pause dur="1.0"/> has anyone got any questions about that <pause dur="1.0"/> </u> <u who="sf1348" trans ="pause">

is a first degree equivalent to an # a foundation degree </u> <u who="nm1346"> sorry i meant a foundation degree <pause dur="0.3"/> sorry <pause dur="0.3"/> you corrected me there <pause dur="0.6"/> when i said that and as a first degree i meant foundation degree thank you <pause dur="3.6"/> okay <pause dur="2.8"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> but from a <pause dur="0.2"/> from a business prospective <pause dur="0.9"/> this is the route you'd probably send your employees down <pause dur="0.3"/> and the type of qualification you would finance them <pause dur="0.6"/> # to do while they were working with you <pause dur="4.0"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> now <pause dur="2.8"/> when it comes to # training programs <pause dur="3.5"/> from a business perspective <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> what basically # # <pause dur="0.3"/> do you expect do do you need to have

<pause dur="1.0"/> well <pause dur="0.5"/> the first thing <pause dur="0.4"/> if you're a businessman paying for an employee to be trained <pause dur="1.7"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> <trunc> o </trunc> or looking at the <pause dur="0.2"/> management <trunc> ov </trunc> overall management checking the employees <pause dur="0.3"/> what are at every stage your clear objectives <pause dur="1.3"/> in academic qualifications <pause dur="0.3"/> we're about developing the individual <pause dur="0.4"/> about giving them as broad a perspective <trunc> o </trunc> on issues as possible <pause dur="0.6"/> but from a business prospective <pause dur="0.6"/> you want clear objectives that meet <pause dur="0.5"/> # clear <pause dur="0.4"/> criteria that suit the business <pause dur="4.0"/> another major issue is that <pause dur="0.2"/> the training comes in manageable components

<pause dur="1.0"/> so in business <pause dur="0.4"/> yes we like to <trunc> ap </trunc> to apply training within some sort of formal structure that's got to fit in with <pause dur="0.3"/> requirements of someone getting on and doing their job as well <pause dur="0.4"/> so that training can't happen at a time of a year when people are <pause dur="0.2"/> particularly busy <pause dur="3.9"/> and like all good training programs this is not just due to businesses we want assessable outcomes <pause dur="0.8"/> and it's actually <trunc> a </trunc> amazes me actually how much training is still out there without any assessable outcome <pause dur="0.4"/> there any clear <pause dur="0.3"/> indication as to what's been achieved <pause dur="8.0"/> there's quite an issue # <pause dur="0.4"/> especially with N-V-Qs <pause dur="0.6"/> about the verification of standards because the

idea is the N-V-Q is a workplace based qualification that you can achieve in your workplace <pause dur="1.0"/> but you get big nurseries and small nurseries good nurseries and bad nurseries <pause dur="0.4"/> and how do these standards all relate to each other <pause dur="0.7"/> and so if somebody moves from one business to another <pause dur="0.4"/> and again with an N-V-Q <pause dur="0.5"/> in one business is that still relevant in the next business they might move to <pause dur="0.3"/> it's quite a complex area <pause dur="0.5"/> and so we have <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> quite an industry <pause dur="0.3"/> actually <pause dur="0.4"/> about <pause dur="0.2"/> making sure <pause dur="0.3"/> that # standards are verified that they interrelate to each other <pause dur="0.5"/> # # and business to business as well <pause dur="5.9"/> the other thing # <pause dur="0.2"/>

that you would expect to see within a # a training programme is # is a qualification process obviously <pause dur="0.5"/> and that's what may well be verified <pause dur="3.3"/> and whatever does come out of it you want to be as widely recognized as possible <pause dur="0.9"/> not just by <pause dur="0.5"/> # within the business <trunc> b </trunc> <trunc> b </trunc> by the employees but also perhaps by your customers <pause dur="0.9"/> # as well as the world at large <pause dur="3.0"/> and <pause dur="0.2"/> # i i mentioned # <pause dur="0.4"/> N-V-Qs but there are other <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="1.4"/> # training programmes that the industry have devised to meet its own # <pause dur="0.2"/> purposes <pause dur="0.5"/> one example is # from the <trunc> h </trunc> Horticultural Trades Association the Plant Care Awards <pause dur="0.5"/> this is a # a series of

awards that's used by # garden centres actually <pause dur="0.4"/> to actually <pause dur="0.4"/> # # <pause dur="0.6"/> raise the level of plant care <pause dur="0.6"/> on garden centres <pause dur="0.5"/> and i have to say some really need it <pause dur="0.6"/> so <pause dur="0.2"/> the <pause dur="0.6"/> # it's an industry based award <pause dur="0.6"/> but but it actually # <pause dur="3.8"/> # it meets a lot of the criteria just discussed <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> <pause dur="5.0"/> do you have a few thoughts about how <pause dur="1.0"/> training is to be managed <pause dur="2.2"/> and <pause dur="1.2"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> really the pivotal pivotal process in in <pause dur="0.8"/> managing the training of employees <pause dur="0.6"/> and the type of thing which also come into <pause dur="0.2"/> # some of the audits that we talked about <pause dur="0.5"/>

# # <pause dur="0.2"/> is a job appraisal <pause dur="0.8"/> okay the process of discussing with the employee <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="1.4"/> their progress <pause dur="0.9"/> and to a certain extent <pause dur="0.6"/> their performance <pause dur="0.5"/> of what can be done to <pause dur="0.2"/> improve it <pause dur="0.5"/> and develop it <pause dur="2.4"/> because <pause dur="0.4"/> from that process <pause dur="2.3"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> what you should be able to do is to develop some sort of training plan some sort of strategy to take <pause dur="0.2"/> that individual <pause dur="0.6"/> and through that individual the business forward <pause dur="3.4"/> there is a bit of # an issue which businesses have to address though <pause dur="0.2"/> because if you're a business paying for training <pause dur="0.8"/> what you're trying to do is #

<pause dur="0.3"/> develop a business primarily <pause dur="1.4"/> as well as to develop the individual <pause dur="0.7"/> and you have to work out some sort of balance here because actually <pause dur="0.2"/> a lot of training <pause dur="0.3"/> # doesn't necessarily directly contribute to business performance <pause dur="0.6"/> directly but it might well contribute to that person's motivation <pause dur="1.4"/> so <pause dur="0.3"/> it's bit of a fine balance it's bit of it's bit of a delicate art <pause dur="0.8"/> and it's interesting actually <pause dur="0.5"/> # in practice i've found <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> working on nurseries <pause dur="0.5"/> that it can be very contentious <pause dur="0.5"/> if one if if a certain individual's been seen to be offered more opportunity particularly that which can't be related to their job and

another <pause dur="0.3"/> it can be can become a source of grievance <pause dur="5.4"/> now it is # <pause dur="0.2"/> a difficult business getting the balance right <pause dur="0.6"/> and in the U-K <pause dur="0.7"/> # we had a scheme called Investors in People <pause dur="0.9"/> have <pause dur="0.53"/> have many of you heard of this <pause dur="1.5"/> </u> <u who="su1357" trans ="pause"> yeah <pause dur="0.5"/> </u> <u who="nm1346" trans ="pause"> okay <vocal desc="laugh" iterated="n"/> some of you will have worked in businesses where that's been achieved <pause dur="0.6"/> # but basically # <trunc> th </trunc> the object of Investors in People is that <pause dur="0.6"/> <trunc> i </trunc> <trunc> i </trunc> it basically it's it's a <pause dur="1.2"/> scheme which again is audited <pause dur="1.0"/> # <pause dur="0.8"/> and it examines <pause dur="1.3"/> # the

process by which <pause dur="0.4"/> # # training is managed within the business <pause dur="0.7"/> # it looks to see that it's been done equitably and fairly <pause dur="0.3"/> it looks to see that it's been properly reviewed <pause dur="0.6"/> # because <pause dur="0.2"/> an awful lot of businesses identify training needs <pause dur="0.3"/> find a course of the right title and send people on it and then don't really determine <pause dur="0.4"/> as to whether it was really any benefit or not <pause dur="0.6"/> so quite integral to the process Investors in People is <pause dur="0.3"/> not just how <pause dur="0.9"/> # <pause dur="1.3"/> things like job appraisals are carried out how training's allocated <pause dur="0.4"/> but also <pause dur="0.3"/> how the process is reviewed as well just to look at its efficacy <pause dur="0.8"/> if you want to know more about this

particular scheme # it has a website this is this is a new website <pause dur="0.4"/> actually and i looked at it # <pause dur="0.2"/> actually over the weekend and it didn't seem to be working properly <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> but it does exist and you might want to look at it in due course <pause dur="7.2"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> now <pause dur="0.2"/> # # really i just want to <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="1.5"/> make a point here that <pause dur="0.4"/> # # <pause dur="1.0"/> actually <pause dur="0.5"/> it's something which i find i'm working against <pause dur="0.3"/> all the time # # in <gap reason="inaudible due to noise from audience " extent="1 sec"/> working working on a working on a nursery <trunc> an </trunc> and that is # the issue of information overload <pause dur="0.5"/> every <pause dur="0.2"/> # season <pause dur="0.7"/>

you find # supervisors <pause dur="0.7"/> # team leaders getting frustrated by people not being able to carry out the job <pause dur="0.7"/> that they've been asked to do <pause dur="0.7"/> and <pause dur="0.3"/> it's surprising actually <pause dur="0.3"/> it takes a lot of experience <pause dur="0.3"/> to to i find to effectively <pause dur="0.5"/> # # develop somebody as efficiently as they <pause dur="0.4"/> could be <pause dur="1.6"/> and <pause dur="0.4"/> # # the problem is that <pause dur="0.3"/> it's very easy <pause dur="0.2"/> to put upon somebody a lot more than they can actually <pause dur="0.4"/> achieve <pause dur="0.7"/> and # but because they can't necessarily remember all that they've been told <pause dur="3.4"/> and # the point that i'm i'm making really <pause dur="0.3"/> is that # it's very very easy <pause dur="0.3"/> to expect too much from people all in

one go <pause dur="0.6"/> what's obvious to us <pause dur="0.5"/> isn't obvious to somebody <pause dur="0.8"/> first hand <pause dur="0.7"/> okay when you know it is obvious when you when you don't it's not <pause dur="0.5"/> so <trunc> inform </trunc> <trunc> i </trunc> information overload is a is a <pause dur="0.4"/> # # very common issue <pause dur="0.3"/> and quite simply it's because <pause dur="0.3"/> perhaps on a first day of work or a first introduction to a new task <pause dur="0.4"/> people are just challenged to remember more than they physically <pause dur="0.6"/> or mentally can <pause dur="1.0"/> and in fact <pause dur="0.6"/> # there's a little there's a very <trunc> lit </trunc> simple little exercise <pause dur="0.7"/> that you can do which just demonstrates the mind's capacity to absorb information <pause dur="1.0"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> and <pause dur="0.6"/>

# <pause dur="0.3"/> what i'm going to do actually i've got i've got just enough time so i'm just going to take you through it <pause dur="0.6"/> can round it off with some more general conclusions <pause dur="0.9"/> and it's a very simple exercise <pause dur="0.2"/> all you have to do <pause dur="0.7"/> is listen to me to <trunc> s </trunc> saying a number to you <pause dur="1.3"/> and write it down <pause dur="1.0"/> is that fair enough <pause dur="1.3"/> you all prepared to do that <pause dur="3.7"/> okay so what i'm going to do is i'm going to <trunc> s </trunc> recite a number <pause dur="0.9"/> you've got to put your pen on the table and when i say <pause dur="0.2"/> write it down gotta write it down you # you happy to do that <pause dur="0.9"/> now how long a number how many digits do you think you'll be able to remember </u> <u who="su1357"> no more than five </u> <u who="nm1346"> no

more than five <pause dur="1.9"/> optimistic six <pause dur="1.0"/> more <pause dur="0.9"/> </u> <u who="su1357" trans ="pause"> seven </u> <u who="nm1346"> seven <pause dur="1.6"/> it's okay <pause dur="1.0"/> let's see how we go now the point is just imagine that instead of giving you numbers i was giving you a series of instructions <pause dur="0.9"/> okay how much could you handle <pause dur="0.9"/> all in one go <pause dur="1.3"/> so anyway i'm going to give you a number and then you'll see what the number is okay <pause dur="1.6"/> so the first number don't write it down yet just write it down when i say <pause dur="3.2"/> is <pause dur="1.1"/> seven <pause dur="0.6"/> three <pause dur="0.9"/> four <pause dur="0.6"/> nine <pause dur="0.9"/> six <pause dur="0.9"/> write that down <pause dur="8.2"/> you all written it down <pause dur="0.5"/> don't look at someone else's just

written <pause dur="2.3"/> do this for yourself okay <pause dur="0.9"/> okay <pause dur="0.2"/> that was basically a five digit instruction to you <pause dur="0.2"/> yeah <pause dur="1.6"/> okay <pause dur="1.9"/> that was the number <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> <pause dur="1.3"/> okay <pause dur="1.4"/> did everybody get that right <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="2"/> i think the answer's no <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="2"/> okay i'll ask you still in the game if you if you didn't get it right <pause dur="0.7"/> you're out the game </u> <u who="sm1354"> is there a cash prize that would make us concentrate </u> <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="2"/> <u who="nm1346"> okay i'll give you another number now okay pens down when i say you're going to write <pause dur="0.6"/> you're going to write

okay <pause dur="0.8"/> and # it's going to be like countdown you'll get your answer verified towards the end okay so <pause dur="1.2"/> okay the number is <pause dur="1.1"/> eight <pause dur="0.4"/> seven <pause dur="0.7"/> two <pause dur="0.4"/> six <pause dur="0.6"/> one <pause dur="0.7"/> nine <pause dur="10.3"/> okay <pause dur="1.9"/> there's your number <pause dur="3.1"/> who's still in the game <pause dur="2.4"/> okay <pause dur="0.5"/> possibly <pause dur="1.1"/> just over half of you possibly <pause dur="0.3"/> okay <pause dur="1.6"/> that's about right <pause dur="2.0"/> okay your next number coming up <pause dur="1.8"/> one <pause dur="0.6"/> seven <pause dur="0.7"/> nine <pause dur="0.6"/> eight <pause dur="0.8"/> five <pause dur="0.6"/> two <pause dur="1.0"/> three <pause dur="13.2"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> that's your number <pause dur="1.8"/>

did you get it <pause dur="3.2"/> how many of you are still in the game <pause dur="1.5"/> now it's about half of you <pause dur="1.0"/> okay <pause dur="0.9"/> so <pause dur="0.2"/> # i'll give you another one in a moment but the point is that # we have seven digits seven <pause dur="0.5"/> okay <pause dur="0.5"/> string of seven <pause dur="0.7"/> # details <pause dur="0.7"/> and it's interesting isn't it <pause dur="0.3"/> we're we're very bright people and we're starting to get things <pause dur="0.6"/> wrong <pause dur="0.3"/> okay just <trunc> trans </trunc> just translate that into the workplace situation somebody's first day at work <pause dur="0.5"/> okay <pause dur="0.3"/> how many things are you going to be told <pause dur="0.6"/> probably often in a one string <pause dur="1.0"/> and how much of that is going to get remembered <gap reason="inaudible multiple speakers"/>

there's context there's reinforcement it's true there is some slight difference i would i would agree okay there's ways of breaking to up but we can talk more about that in terms of # <pause dur="0.8"/> how often do supervisors say for example <pause dur="0.3"/> i want you to take this from here to there to do that to it and then take it to here and then there and <pause dur="1.6"/> then somebody's trying to do it and they started to try to remember what they've just been told is the point i'm making <pause dur="0.5"/> it happens very very easily <pause dur="1.0"/> </u> <u who="sf1347" trans ="pause"> also <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> once you've been told it you don't then you use it for a few days that's when it usually <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> </u> <u who="nm1346"> that doesn't help either yeah for those of you that want to i'll give you a

bigger number <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="1"/> well i've had # <vocal desc="laugh" iterated="n"/> i better not <pause dur="1.2"/> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> </u> <u who="su1357"> no don't say that <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="1"/> </u> <u who="nm1346"> no i will then in that case </u> <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="1"/> <u who="su1357"> good </u> <u who="nm1346"> okay for those of you still in the game i will just give you a quick number and you can see if you can get it <pause dur="1.6"/> okay <pause dur="1.2"/> two <pause dur="0.3"/> eight <pause dur="0.4"/> six <pause dur="0.5"/> four <pause dur="0.5"/> three <pause dur="0.4"/> nine <pause dur="0.3"/> five <pause dur="0.3"/> one <pause dur="12.1"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> did anyone get that <pause dur="4.0"/> well you're

very clever <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="5"/> anyway the point i'm making is is often a <trunc> ca </trunc> is is often lot of frustration in workplace about about # # inducting new people yeah you're not going to get that i'm not even going to give it to you <pause dur="3.0"/> okay the point i'm just making then in terms of workplace training comes back to a lot of the issues we talked about in terms of familiarizing staff with new procedures et cetera <pause dur="1.5"/> <kinesic desc="changes slide" iterated="n"/> but an information string of more distinct <trunc> o </trunc> <pause dur="0.5"/> of more than six distinct components is liable to misinterpretation <pause dur="0.8"/> okay given it all at once it <pause dur="0.4"/> depends on the type of information depends how it's reinforced as well <pause dur="0.6"/>

but it is liable to to misinterpretation <pause dur="0.5"/> and that actually also comes back as to why for example we use <pause dur="0.6"/> # for <trunc> examp </trunc> # i showed you machinery we showed you you <pause dur="0.4"/> know operating procedures on the machine itself for example <pause dur="0.7"/> because people can actually <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> easily become confused <pause dur="3.4"/> and <pause dur="0.6"/> # so from what i've just said <reading> even the most basic new tasks can be better assimilated if accompanied by a written instruction </reading> <pause dur="1.5"/> and again we talked about you know is it a good idea to have written work instructions isn't that a bit onerous <pause dur="0.4"/> but the point <pause dur="0.2"/> # i'm making here is that actually they could also be useful <pause dur="0.7"/> okay it could solve some of

the problems that we've just been talking about <pause dur="0.3"/> already on this course <pause dur="6.0"/> and when we're talking about training what we've got to do is be careful to break down information into <pause dur="0.2"/> manageable parts <pause dur="3.0"/> that's what # <pause dur="0.3"/> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> in learning <pause dur="3.2"/> there's a few other points to just bear in mind <pause dur="1.1"/> whenever you're telling <trunc> any </trunc> anybody anything <pause dur="0.2"/> or trying to instruct <pause dur="1.1"/> the most important <trunc> poi </trunc> <pause dur="0.4"/> points in your presentation are going to be the beginning and the end <pause dur="0.5"/> those are the bits that actually get remembered <pause dur="0.5"/> the most distinctly <pause dur="5.4"/> and # most people have an optimum attention span of about

twenty minutes <pause dur="0.5"/> and actually this is a real issue i have with a lot of of managers on the nursery <pause dur="0.54"/> 'cause they sometimes run <pause dur="0.4"/> training sessions actually last about two hours <pause dur="0.7"/> okay 'cause that's the sort of regular working time <pause dur="0.9"/> and you're just going to waste a lot of that time because their attention won't be held <pause dur="0.8"/> that's why i like to put a break in the middle of our <pause dur="1.2"/> sessions which last two hour well one hour fifty minutes <pause dur="0.7"/> maximum <pause dur="0.8"/> because actually <pause dur="0.5"/> # the efficacy of that session's going to be improved <pause dur="0.5"/> if we put a break in the middle of it <pause dur="4.2"/> and <pause dur="0.6"/> # it's true though actually you can use some devices to make interesting or <pause dur="0.3"/>

# interesting <pause dur="0.5"/> # if there's any notional stimulus then people are more likely to be fully involved <pause dur="1.1"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> not something you can apply very much in a workplace context <pause dur="0.4"/> but unless <pause dur="0.5"/> # # <pause dur="0.3"/> worth bearing in mind <pause dur="1.0"/> okay i've given a very quick overview of training issues 'cause it seem pertinent to cover it in a context of this course <pause dur="0.4"/> as i say we've now finished the key quality management component <pause dur="1.0"/> next week # i will be looking at financial management <pause dur="0.3"/> and in week <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="1.7"/> ten <pause dur="0.5"/> # which is <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> the last # # <pause dur="0.2"/> Thursday of term of course <pause dur="0.4"/> # what i'm actually going to look at is is more

communication issues and <pause dur="0.5"/> # networking <pause dur="0.3"/> personal networking issues just to give you an idea of <trunc> wh </trunc> what's to follow <pause dur="0.8"/> i'm going to finish here <pause dur="0.5"/> # but one thing i am going to do <pause dur="0.4"/> # which won't be part of the lecture <pause dur="0.5"/> # it's i am just going to take any questions about the assignment particularly from the M-S-Cs <pause dur="0.6"/> # 'cause i'm getting a lot of questions still coming through about how to cover that assignment <pause dur="0.6"/> and in case there needs to be an opportunity for everyone to hear everything <pause dur="0.4"/> i'm going to do that <pause dur="0.2"/> but otherwise <pause dur="0.6"/> # i've finished with <pause dur="0.4"/> with group as a whole for now <pause dur="0.6"/> okay <pause dur="0.5"/> so <pause dur="0.3"/> thanks for that and i'll see you # again on Thursday </u> </body> </text> </TEI.2>