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<title>Current issues in feminism</title></titleStmt>

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<availability><p>The British Academic Spoken English (BASE) corpus was developed at the

Universities of Warwick and Reading, under the directorship of Hilary Nesi

(Centre for English Language Teacher Education, Warwick) and Paul Thompson

(Department of Applied Linguistics, Reading), with funding from BALEAP,

EURALEX, the British Academy and the Arts and Humanities Research Board. The

original recordings are held at the Universities of Warwick and Reading, and

at the Oxford Text Archive and may be consulted by bona fide researchers

upon written application to any of the holding bodies.

The BASE corpus is freely available to researchers who agree to the

following conditions:</p>

<p>1. The recordings and transcriptions should not be modified in any

way</p>

<p>2. The recordings and transcriptions should be used for research purposes

only; they should not be reproduced in teaching materials</p>

<p>3. The recordings and transcriptions should not be reproduced in full for

a wider audience/readership, although researchers are free to quote short

passages of text (up to 200 running words from any given speech event)</p>

<p>4. The corpus developers should be informed of all presentations or

publications arising from analysis of the corpus</p><p>

Researchers should acknowledge their use of the corpus using the following

form of words:

The recordings and transcriptions used in this study come from the British

Academic Spoken English (BASE) corpus, which was developed at the

Universities of Warwick and Reading under the directorship of Hilary Nesi

(Warwick) and Paul Thompson (Reading). Corpus development was assisted by

funding from the Universities of Warwick and Reading, BALEAP, EURALEX, the

British Academy and the Arts and Humanities Research Board. </p></availability>

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<u who="nf1091"> anyway so there was Professor Guillebaud and he was explaining that <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> the <trunc>contra</trunc> and <pause dur="0.2"/> see <unclear>well</unclear> again he wasn't being terribly well understood <pause dur="0.4"/> because <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> Humphries had a set of questions he was supposed to ask this unfortunate man <pause dur="0.5"/> and he was going to ask them regardless of what it turned out this guy had actually been saying so it went in the usual way of try the guy's trying to make point A <pause dur="0.6"/> and Humphries is asking question X <pause dur="0.7"/> and there's just no way that point A and question X can be got into the same ballpark <pause dur="0.8"/> and what <pause dur="0.5"/> Guillebaud's great idea was he actually said i mean <pause dur="0.2"/> it's just like doctor speak he is a doctor i might say <pause dur="0.6"/> # he said well you know <pause dur="0.3"/> most people try to be good <pause dur="1.1"/> but they don't always succeed so we're going to try and help them <pause dur="0.4"/> take care of things when they're not being so very good <pause dur="0.4"/> most <trunc>pe</trunc> we're going to help them be careful was what he was saying <pause dur="0.4"/> and i thought <pause dur="0.6"/> how on earth do you decide <pause dur="0.3"/> that <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> in order to be good you have to resist the constant pressure to

sexual activity in this society in what way is it good <pause dur="0.3"/> to resist it <pause dur="0.4"/> the agenda is actually do it <pause dur="0.7"/> but <pause dur="0.2"/> he's still got the idea that you're good <pause dur="0.3"/> if you don't it's like people who say that the baby was very good <pause dur="0.4"/> when what they mean is the baby was very silent <pause dur="0.3"/> possibly dead <pause dur="2.4"/><vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="2"/> # which is not my idea of good at all so and there was all of this stuff <pause dur="0.3"/> and he said # that most of the people in the world <pause dur="1.1"/> were born by accident <pause dur="1.5"/> which isn't true either <pause dur="0.9"/> we know the proportion of accidental conceptions more or less from # the endless surveys that women are so <pause dur="1.1"/> good as to supply data for and it's somewhere about <pause dur="0.5"/> it's still too high it's about a quarter i think but it's certainly not <pause dur="0.2"/> all or even most <pause dur="0.6"/> so there was all of this going on and what is his contraceptive of the future his contraceptive of the future is an implant <pause dur="0.5"/> that will be put in <pause dur="0.2"/> adolescent girls so that they won't get pregnant <pause dur="1.7"/> and i just <pause dur="0.4"/> nobody identified this as a gender issue <pause dur="0.8"/> and there's only

me in the car shouting <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="5"/> across Hertfordshire saying <pause dur="0.2"/><shift feature="loud" new="f"/>why don't you caponize the fucking boys why have you got to caponize the girls <pause dur="0.2"/> why is it always the girls <shift feature="loud" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.5"/> the thing is i kind of know the answer as well because it's the girls <pause dur="0.4"/> who have been programmed to desire sexual intimacy at any cost <pause dur="0.5"/> it's the girls who can't ask for a condom to be used who don't feel sufficiently <pause dur="0.5"/> desirable or in control or anything to be able to <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> demand <pause dur="0.5"/> or impose conditions to sexual intimacy <pause dur="0.4"/> so i kind of knew the answer but i wanted somebody to say to him <pause dur="0.7"/> # you know have you never heard of chlamydia have you never heard of human papilloma virus <pause dur="0.3"/> do you really not care <pause dur="0.3"/> about herpes in young women <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> do you consider as a member of the Family Planning Association <pause dur="0.3"/> that you have a duty to protect the fertility of young women so that they <pause dur="0.3"/> have the option of planning a family <pause dur="0.3"/> instead of exposing them to sterilizing disease <pause dur="0.3"/> because <pause dur="0.2"/> of your <pause dur="0.3"/> hidden agenda <pause dur="0.2"/> which is to

stop them having any children whatsoever as far as i can see <pause dur="1.3"/> so having failed to identify the extraordinary gender bias in this <pause dur="0.5"/> or however <pause dur="0.7"/> the way in which Guillebaud's attitudes were completely <pause dur="0.2"/> unregenerate <pause dur="0.6"/> # so that it's <pause dur="0.5"/> # and of course who did they put up against him they put up a defender of family values who i may say <pause dur="0.7"/> did not a bad job <pause dur="0.3"/> of defending feminist values <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> but <pause dur="0.2"/> would have <pause dur="0.3"/> been horrified to have been told that that's what she was doing and she said you know <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> we're turning these girls into sex objects i thought you might as well <trunc>s</trunc> you know acknowledge <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>where this notion comes from <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.5"/> this is making them and i think that's right i mean it's making them think that their <pause dur="0.4"/> their primary their primary social function is to be <pause dur="0.3"/> involved in <pause dur="0.2"/> penetrative sex that <pause dur="0.2"/> without that they might as well be dead <pause dur="0.7"/> and so and she had a real point and she made her points <pause dur="0.5"/> fairly well i thought <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> but what was interesting to me is that the people <pause dur="0.3"/> <trunc>d</trunc> dealing with this

issue just could not see <pause dur="0.9"/> the gender aspect of it and yet they want to tell us <pause dur="0.3"/> that feminism has nothing to teach them <pause dur="0.6"/> they were literally and they <trunc>sa</trunc> if they say feminism is dead <pause dur="0.5"/> i'm prepared to agree because it's dead in their heads there wasn't a fizz there wasn't a button <pause dur="0.3"/> marked gender on their keyboard <pause dur="0.6"/> and so there was no way they could actually <pause dur="0.4"/> understand the <pause dur="0.2"/> the discourse they were having <pause dur="0.5"/> so then we got to <pause dur="0.2"/> and i was asked to be in this ridiculous is feminism dead debate <pause dur="0.5"/><shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/> and said <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/>that # no <pause dur="1.3"/><vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> didn't explain just said no <pause dur="0.4"/> and so it was Kathy Lette instead another <pause dur="0.2"/> gabby Australian gets sat in the hot seat <pause dur="0.8"/><vocal desc="laugh" n="ss" iterated="n"/> and the editor of <trunc>cosmopol</trunc> <vocal desc="laughter" n="sl" iterated="y" dur="2"/><pause dur="0.3"/> and the editor of Cosmopolitan <pause dur="0.4"/> said <pause dur="0.8"/> # which is still the best selling women's magazine in England so if feminism is dead we'd better galvanize it and frankenstein it and get it back on the road if that's still the case <pause dur="0.7"/> # so she was saying oh well you know women <pause dur="0.3"/> have achieved all the things they want to

achieve more or less <pause dur="0.3"/> and the thing that i can't bear is all this ranting on about men and <pause dur="0.4"/> all this assumption that men are the enemy # <pause dur="0.6"/> and you know it was so terrible in the late <trunc>sev</trunc> somebody always identifies a time when feminists told you what to do <pause dur="1.1"/> it was and in the late seventies and early eighties it seems is the time when feminists kept telling people what to <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>do <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" dur="1"/> which i thought was really funny <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.4"/> because every time i hear it it's a different set of years apparently we've always been telling people what to do <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> and they've never done any of it <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="2"/> as far as i can see <pause dur="1.8"/> and Kathy Lette was very funny the so that # Kathy was asked are you still kicking and screaming and God bless her she said well i am <pause dur="0.7"/> but then of course she made it entirely a matter of <pause dur="0.7"/> pay inequality <pause dur="1.5"/> # so that the whole dimension of misogyny which is what really preoccupies us the most i think <pause dur="0.6"/> # so that it was all done in the Natasha Walter frame of careers and how we can have it all

in a career <pause dur="0.4"/> as if careers are the point which of course they're not <pause dur="0.2"/> the point is a life worth living not a career necessarily <pause dur="0.7"/> so that was that was interesting because <pause dur="0.4"/> Kathy's instincts were all in the right place <pause dur="0.4"/> but it was very apparent to me hurtling <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>along the <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/>A-five-o-seven <pause dur="0.6"/> that what was needed was some <pause dur="0.3"/> new <pause dur="1.0"/> slogans and some <pause dur="0.2"/> new awareness of where the <pause dur="0.6"/> the hot spots are where the <distinct lang="it">punto dolente</distinct> as Italians say where the painful points are <pause dur="0.6"/> # because Kathy wasn't anywhere near <pause dur="0.2"/> angry enough # i mean even <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>though <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.4"/> she's well aware of what happens to the birthing woman and what happens to the rearing mother and <pause dur="0.4"/> so forth <pause dur="0.4"/> # that she didn't think that that was part of it because it was already couched in that term and i've already had my say about <pause dur="0.4"/> it was all in <pause dur="0.8"/> in the rhetoric of equality <pause dur="1.3"/> which <pause dur="0.2"/> to me becomes <pause dur="1.2"/> really without substance after a while because <pause dur="0.4"/> it's not even a question of <pause dur="0.2"/> of pay equality <pause dur="0.7"/> there was also there was <trunc>m</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> other stuff too of course about <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> mothers and

teachers and the child care sector and so on <pause dur="0.4"/> but again not identified as a feminist issue <pause dur="0.4"/> or indeed a gender issue <pause dur="0.5"/> okay so that's my proem <pause dur="0.9"/> now please could i have a question <pause dur="3.1"/> <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>you're all sitting <kinesic desc="indicates line of audience" iterated="n"/> i was going to go like this though <vocal desc="laughter" n="sl" iterated="y" dur="1"/> <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/></u><u who="sf1092" trans="overlap"> oh right <pause dur="1.3"/> you keep talking about this gap i think <pause dur="0.3"/> you know we've all felt this gap <pause dur="0.4"/> between <pause dur="0.3"/> academic feminism where i think feminism's very very much alive </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> mm </u><u who="sf1092" trans="overlap"> <pause dur="0.3"/> albeit <pause dur="0.3"/> threatened at <pause dur="0.2"/> at points and whatever <pause dur="0.4"/> and <pause dur="0.3"/> popular feminism which seems to be a very different kind of species <pause dur="0.3"/> can you <pause dur="0.5"/> do you see any way of bridging <pause dur="0.3"/> that gap <pause dur="0.9"/> or is it that we all have to <pause dur="0.3"/> frankenstein our <pause dur="0.2"/> discourse i mean how can we get <pause dur="0.5"/> the debates <pause dur="0.3"/> that have been conducted in the academy for the last thirty years <pause dur="0.3"/> somehow into the public realm <pause dur="0.5"/> because the questions of things like the what you've been talking about such as equality and sexual difference have been very much burgeoning debates </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> mm-hmm </u><u who="sf1092" trans="latching"> within <pause dur="0.4"/> the feminist

academy <pause dur="0.2"/> for some time <pause dur="0.3"/> but they don't seem to have made any impact at all <pause dur="0.5"/> on <pause dur="0.5"/> the public <pause dur="0.9"/> if that's a <pause dur="0.6"/> workable distinction </u><pause dur="1.0"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> well i think it is a workable distinction <pause dur="0.2"/> and i think some of the reasons are are <pause dur="0.2"/> very well set out by <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> <pause dur="0.2"/><kinesic desc="indicates member of audience" iterated="n"/> in the stuff that you have written for <pause dur="0.5"/> i can't <trunc>remem</trunc> the handbook <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> because it's true that <pause dur="0.2"/> academic feminism has to follow certain models of academic discourse <pause dur="0.6"/> and they are controlling models and they're also debating models <pause dur="0.4"/> so they don't allow much <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> room for recasting ideas and behaviours <pause dur="0.5"/> they <pause dur="0.2"/> they almost insist upon well they do insist upon a measure of detachment <pause dur="0.4"/> and this comes into conflict with the whole feminist <pause dur="0.4"/> insistence on first person evidence <pause dur="0.3"/> and of what it actually feels like <pause dur="0.5"/> now i mean i would justify what i have done <pause dur="0.2"/> in writing The Whole Woman <pause dur="1.5"/> as an attempt to bridge that <pause dur="1.2"/> gap but also i mean what will actually happen is what happened to me before <pause dur="0.4"/> which is that the academic feminists will ignore me <pause dur="0.2"/> it will be as if

the book had never been written <pause dur="0.4"/> and they'll get a lot of their student intake because of the existence of the book <pause dur="0.4"/> but it will not be discussed seriously and in fact <pause dur="0.4"/> i mean it has actually happened in the past it works both ways this gap <pause dur="0.4"/> that what i write is <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> interpreted <pause dur="0.6"/> by <pause dur="0.3"/> academic feminists as it was interpreted by the tabloid press they take on board the tabloid press caricature of the argument <pause dur="0.7"/> so they <pause dur="0.2"/> they talk about # you know The Female Eunuch being <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> a sex manual <pause dur="0.7"/> it's not a sex <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> manual at all <pause dur="0.6"/> the fact that it's sometimes <pause dur="0.7"/> talked of in that way <pause dur="0.7"/> # is something that you would think <pause dur="0.2"/> that a feminist <pause dur="0.3"/> <trunc>w</trunc> <pause dur="0.5"/> would be aware of that she'd be sensitized to the possibility of a book that actually claimed that women were <trunc>sensu</trunc> sexual beings <pause dur="0.4"/> might be interpreted as # a sex handbook <pause dur="0.7"/> or you know a a <pause dur="0.2"/> and # you as i get serialized by people like Cosmopolitan in a way i've deserved it <pause dur="0.7"/> and <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> <pause dur="0.2"/> if <trunc>n</trunc> i mean this was the whole point about the # <pause dur="0.8"/> the

interaction with things like Playboy <pause dur="1.2"/> i mean one # Playboy made me journalist of the year which i think is hilarious <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> <pause dur="0.6"/> because they were trying to buy respectability all they managed to do was to purchase for me an a certain amount of disrespect or <pause dur="0.2"/> unrespectability so <pause dur="0.6"/> and the same thing is going to happen again <pause dur="1.1"/> i'm <pause dur="0.5"/> horrified <pause dur="0.9"/> by the hype <pause dur="0.2"/> that is going to be given to this book <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> just because <pause dur="1.0"/> i don't like hype and i just think of myself as a reviewer i would go for the jugular <pause dur="0.2"/> i would read this book looking for all kinds of hypocrisy and self-serving and so forth <pause dur="0.8"/> and everybody else is going to do exactly the same i think or certainly all the people who i would think of as my <pause dur="0.9"/> my native <pause dur="0.2"/> allies will <pause dur="0.5"/> go to town on it which will cause me a good deal of grief <pause dur="0.7"/> but <pause dur="0.5"/> you have to do it <pause dur="0.5"/> because there'd been lots of good books <pause dur="0.4"/> published that had <pause dur="0.2"/> that would have had an effect upon <pause dur="0.3"/> the level of <pause dur="0.2"/> feminist discourse in the public arena <pause dur="0.4"/> but the but the public never read them <pause dur="1.4"/> the public <pause dur="0.5"/>

never even knew that they existed they weren't reviewed they weren't foregrounded at all <pause dur="0.8"/> and so here am i you know in bed with The Daily Telegraph <pause dur="0.2"/> which <pause dur="0.3"/> # i can assure you my bed is one place The Daily Telegraph has never been <pause dur="0.7"/><vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> and i cannot read the paper for embarrassment <pause dur="0.7"/> i feel <pause dur="0.2"/> soiled after i've read a Daily Telegraph <pause dur="0.3"/> editorial <pause dur="0.3"/> and there i'm going to be in all my glory <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> but still <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="1.1"/> preaching to the unconverted which is a good place to be <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.8"/> i don't get the money from the serialization it's nothing to do with me <pause dur="0.7"/> and i can remember weeping and wailing to David Hare on <pause dur="0.3"/> at an airport that i couldn't i just couldn't bear the thought of March <pause dur="0.9"/> because the book is going to be given away on railway stations they're going to give people chapters to read on the train <pause dur="0.6"/> and he said God can you imagine how happy i would be if that had ever happened to any of my plays don't you <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="2"/> dare complain <pause dur="0.8"/> but you don't understand i'm going to feel so shafted by the

whole thing <pause dur="0.6"/> i spent all of Monday <pause dur="0.7"/> pretending to be myself for a photographer <pause dur="0.3"/> who kept saying shake your fist look angry i thought oh <vocal desc="laughter" n="sl" iterated="y" dur="2"/> <pause dur="1.3"/><vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> 'cause they want to have you know the demented picture <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="3"/> there she goes again rave rave rave <pause dur="0.8"/> well <pause dur="1.1"/> i don't really care all that much they i don't they can <pause dur="0.3"/> they'll i don't know what they'll do we'll see i mean it will be an exercise in <pause dur="0.6"/> in # <pause dur="0.9"/> media manipulation to see how they present this thing <pause dur="0.6"/> but <pause dur="0.6"/> the exciting thing is that the <pause dur="0.2"/> very few people have read it because of the embargo and the exciting thing is people do feel excited by it <pause dur="0.2"/> they feel energized by it <pause dur="0.6"/> and that's really what i'm trying to do i'm trying to galvanize this discourse i'm also trying to make people realize <pause dur="0.4"/> God you know my hysterectomy is a feminist issue <pause dur="0.5"/> it's not just something that happened to <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/> me <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/> <pause dur="0.7"/> # and that maybe we should start talking maybe instead of all sitting there you know in the outpatients department of the <pause dur="1.0"/> of the national health hospital

we should all start talking about what we're actually going through here <pause dur="0.6"/> and just how this ordeal is presented to us as a privilege <pause dur="2.9"/> okay </u><u who="om1093" trans="overlap"> may i ask a question </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> sure </u><u who="om1093" trans="overlap"> # <pause dur="0.3"/> to the audience <pause dur="1.0"/> would it be all right if i put the camera on <pause dur="0.2"/> the audience if if you're going to be asking a lot of questions <pause dur="2.0"/> is that okay </u><u who="ss" trans="latching"> <gap reason="inaudible, multiple speakers" extent="1 sec"/></u><u who="om1093" trans="overlap"> yeah <pause dur="0.3"/> okay thanks very much </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> they're a bit cross because some of them are a bit cross because they didn't get a chance to <trunc>g</trunc> have their hair done <pause dur="1.6"/><vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> i'm even crosser 'cause i had a chance to have my hair done and didn't <vocal desc="laughter" n="sl" iterated="y" dur="3"/> <pause dur="1.4"/> <trunc>p</trunc> and people say <pause dur="0.2"/> how could you let yourself be photographed i think do you realize these people arrived at ten-thirty in the morning <pause dur="0.5"/> and stayed until seven-thirty at night <pause dur="0.7"/> and i needed to get dog food <pause dur="1.5"/><vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>so <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.6"/> i had to invent food for the dogs at seven-thirty at night <pause dur="1.3"/> and after a while you just don't care after a while you just they just say stand here do this do that and they made me <pause dur="0.3"/> put on clothes to go out they said

wear what you would normally wear in the garden and i said i am wearing what i normally <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> wear in the garden <pause dur="0.5"/> they said oh we want you in a long flowing coat i said you're going to tell people i garden in a macintosh <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> they're going to think i'm completely mad <pause dur="0.6"/> and i think the aim is to make me look completely mad <pause dur="0.6"/><vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> this woman is a New Zealander that may explain it <pause dur="1.1"/><vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> so if you see these weird pictures in The Daily <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>Telegraph <vocal desc="laughter" n="sl" iterated="y" dur="2"/> <pause dur="0.2"/><shift feature="voice" new="normal"/> they i think they've been set up in order to be extremely weird <pause dur="0.4"/> okay <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>'s question next </u><u who="nf1094" trans="latching"> <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>no <unclear>no i'm going to pass</unclear><shift feature="voice" new="normal"/> </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> okay next </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="sf1095" trans="pause"> i'm passing as well </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> oh no </u><pause dur="1.1"/> <u who="sf1096" trans="pause"> i haven't really thought about one but <pause dur="0.4"/> i've read Natasha Walter's New Feminism lately </u><pause dur="0.5"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> mm </u><u who="sf1096" trans="overlap"> which <pause dur="0.3"/> i didn't enjoy at all <pause dur="0.4"/> and also # <pause dur="0.3"/> Fay Weldon's made some quite <pause dur="0.2"/> kind of <pause dur="0.8"/> extreme <pause dur="0.2"/> you know expressed some quite extreme opinions that i've also found quite shocking <pause dur="0.4"/> so in a way is The Whole Woman a kind of <pause dur="0.3"/> reaction against <pause dur="0.8"/>

what's happening to feminism <pause dur="0.5"/> in popular </u><pause dur="0.5"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> well yes of course it has to be <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> i'm i must say i'm puzzled about Fay <pause dur="0.4"/> because Fay <pause dur="0.2"/> wrote you remember The Fat Woman's Joke <pause dur="1.0"/> which was the first really feminist novel <pause dur="0.2"/> and it it predates <pause dur="0.3"/> practically everything and it just appeared <pause dur="0.2"/> chunk <pause dur="0.7"/> this <pause dur="0.3"/> transgressive bad girl book <pause dur="0.7"/> and she's been wonderful ever since <pause dur="1.0"/> until about <pause dur="0.2"/> five years ago when she started saying that feminism had gone too far i just don't see how you could ever say that <pause dur="0.7"/> but if you actually looked about you and saw the <trunc>f</trunc> the fate whether you look at the world's women whether you look at the feminization of poverty whether you look at reproductive politics whether you <pause dur="0.4"/> wherever you look you will see <pause dur="0.4"/> that women <pause dur="0.6"/> are powerless <pause dur="0.5"/> and this is # to me it's very clear for example that women <pause dur="0.4"/> surge into the parliamentary Labour Party <pause dur="0.4"/> at exactly the moment when power ebbs out of the even the executive <pause dur="0.4"/> into the hands of the oligarchs <pause dur="0.3"/> who've now got a kind of mandate to

run it as if as if it was a Chinese government of the twelfth century <pause dur="0.4"/> because somehow people understand that if you <pause dur="0.2"/> if you actually discuss things openly all these mad women i mean God knows what they might say <pause dur="0.4"/> i don't know if anybody does think like that but i think they are very homosocial these people <pause dur="0.6"/> # and they don't <trunc>re</trunc> and the women that they've <pause dur="0.2"/> got close to them they have extremely difficult relationships with if you think of Clare Short <pause dur="0.3"/> and Mo Mowlam <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.8"/> so it seems to me that instead of saying see see all these women have got into Parliament i mean anybody with half a brain must realize <pause dur="0.5"/> that we have never had such silent back-benchers <pause dur="0.5"/> these back-benchers are mute <pause dur="0.5"/> and we're doing all sorts of insane things without a mandate from the people or from the U-N or from anyone <pause dur="0.4"/> and still this <pause dur="0.2"/> silence <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> and <pause dur="0.3"/> the three monthly attacks on single mums <pause dur="0.8"/> there are single mums sitting in Parliament <pause dur="1.1"/> what is going on <pause dur="0.8"/> so i didn't understand what <pause dur="0.3"/> Fay was up to but <pause dur="0.3"/> one of my

problems as deciding to be the person who stands on this <pause dur="0.6"/> like the Colossus at Rhodes with one foot in the academy and the other foot <pause dur="0.2"/> in the popular media <pause dur="0.8"/> is # that i <trunc>kee</trunc> i have <pause dur="0.2"/> always to support <pause dur="0.2"/> another <pause dur="0.2"/> woman let alone feminist <pause dur="0.5"/> in a public debate i will not mud wrestle for the media <pause dur="0.5"/> with occasional <pause dur="0.5"/> startling exceptions like when i lost my temper with Suzanne Moore and smacked her about a bit <pause dur="0.8"/> i think senior feminists can clip people round the ears <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>occasionally <pause dur="0.9"/><vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> it'll do them nothing but good <pause dur="0.6"/> <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/> # <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="2"/> but so that i can't although i really would like to say to Fay oh <pause dur="1.5"/> i don't doubt at all you know that men are suffering <pause dur="0.3"/> masculinity is a terrible system <pause dur="1.2"/> but why do you think it's women's fault <pause dur="0.2"/> how do you get <pause dur="0.2"/> how do you get your mind round to that position <pause dur="0.4"/> i mean even if you say look <pause dur="0.4"/> women used to support men <pause dur="0.5"/> any man no matter how beaten up by his trade union or by his employer or <pause dur="0.2"/> by the police <pause dur="0.6"/> could rely on a supportive little woman who'd

put <pause dur="0.2"/> a hot meal meat and two veg on the table in front of him and tell him he was marvellous <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> and now she's saying # excuse me but i want something for myself <pause dur="0.2"/> this is the fantasy that that's what's happened i mean a lot of what's happened is women saying listen <pause dur="0.3"/> i've got to go out to work 'cause otherwise we don't pay this mortgage goodbye <pause dur="0.5"/> # your tea's in the oven or <trunc>y</trunc> indeed your tea's in the freezer <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> and <pause dur="0.5"/> so that but somehow even if you could say <pause dur="0.4"/> that women have withdrawn their support of men and therefore men are in free fall <pause dur="0.5"/> then it just goes to prove the justice of the women's case that <pause dur="0.2"/> the entire system was resting on their backs <pause dur="0.4"/> they were the tortoises that were holding up the elephant <pause dur="0.3"/> and the tortoises walked away and the elephant has fallen over <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> and of course it's painful and difficult if that's what's happened but i don't think it's what's happened <pause dur="0.5"/> i think the way in which the argument about men's malaise <pause dur="0.4"/> their suicide attempts their successful suicides

their unemployability <pause dur="0.4"/> their level of criminal activity and alcoholism and so on <pause dur="0.4"/> the way this discourse is couched <pause dur="1.1"/> it just ignores factors that are really <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>important <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.5"/> like <pause dur="0.2"/> poverty <pause dur="0.2"/> like <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> unemployment <pause dur="0.2"/> we know that unemployment is a cause of <pause dur="0.5"/> of disease <pause dur="0.5"/> <trunc>i</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> and we know that poverty is a cause of disease <pause dur="0.3"/> but for some reason <pause dur="0.5"/> if we see a disproportionate <pause dur="1.1"/> reaction to <pause dur="0.8"/> a change in fortunes by men we'd sort of <pause dur="0.2"/> look <pause dur="0.2"/> towards women and say <pause dur="0.3"/> that must be your fault <pause dur="1.2"/> which is <pause dur="0.2"/> i mean it's so gratuitous it's amazing <pause dur="0.7"/> and every time you actually deconstruct the language of inculpation of women <pause dur="0.8"/> # you see how gratuitous it is and you also see <pause dur="0.3"/> how it goes from <pause dur="0.2"/> guarded statements <pause dur="0.7"/> to <pause dur="0.4"/> absolute certainty in the course of a single discussion <pause dur="0.2"/> thus didst thou <pause dur="0.7"/> # and i don't understand quite i mean i have <pause dur="0.2"/> occasionally i say darkly that it must be the effect of H-R-T flooding the brain <pause dur="0.7"/> # because Fay is on <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>H-R-T <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/>Fay has had a facelift and Fay does <pause dur="0.4"/> have a new husband all these things can be guaranteed

to turn a girl's brain <pause dur="0.2"/> i think <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="3"/> <pause dur="1.7"/> so i'm waiting for her to come to her senses <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="2"/> <pause dur="1.4"/> and i don't want to have been so terribly rude about her in the interim that i <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>can't we can't have <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/>any further <pause dur="0.4"/> dealings <pause dur="0.6"/> and as for Natasha Walter <pause dur="1.0"/> i i <trunc>th</trunc> i think Natasha Walter has no idea what it's all about <pause dur="0.9"/> # <trunc>th</trunc> <pause dur="0.6"/> that's another thing as well i mean her the <pause dur="0.5"/> there is a conviction in this country that feminist discourse occurs in the newspapers <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="0.8"/> and that that's it <pause dur="1.1"/> that there # so that Natasha Walter didn't bother <pause dur="0.2"/> to bone up on feminist theory or gender theory <pause dur="0.5"/> # she just sort of wrote about <pause dur="0.3"/> an idea of feminism as a kind of grim puritanical era sometime in the past <pause dur="0.3"/> from which she as a butterfly had just emerged <pause dur="0.3"/> and could <trunc>s</trunc> go from flower to flower <pause dur="0.4"/> in her <pause dur="0.4"/> her # <pause dur="0.2"/> nice dresses and strappy sandals <pause dur="0.6"/><vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> made by child labour in south-east Asia <pause dur="0.4"/> which isn't going to cause her a moment's <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.9"/> malaise or <pause dur="0.3"/> anxiety so <pause dur="0.6"/> yes it <trunc>w</trunc> i was probably the new feminism <pause dur="0.4"/> that did it <pause dur="1.3"/>

because i just couldn't <pause dur="0.3"/> <trunc>belie</trunc> it was like <pause dur="1.1"/> it was like reading <pause dur="1.8"/> it was like reading the inside of a pumpkin or <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>something <pause dur="0.4"/><shift feature="voice" new="normal"/> it was just a space enclosed by words there was nothing there that i could recognize not about <pause dur="0.5"/> the lives of my god-daughters or my nieces or my <pause dur="0.6"/> sister or my mother or it was all conducted in <pause dur="0.2"/> the Groucho as far as i could see </u><pause dur="2.4"/> <u who="sf1097" trans="pause"> yeah <pause dur="0.4"/> # my <pause dur="0.2"/><vocal desc="clears throat" iterated="n"/> my question <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> you've referred to <pause dur="0.2"/> transsexuals a few times </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> mm </u><u who="sf1097" trans="latching"> during these sessions and i wondered if you could say a bit more <pause dur="0.5"/> about your general <pause dur="0.6"/> view <pause dur="0.2"/> on transsexuality </u><pause dur="1.6"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> well <pause dur="1.1"/> perhaps i should <trunc>i</trunc> <pause dur="0.4"/> i thought that i might have <pause dur="0.2"/> in fact given this last lecture on sexuality # all of this is such a difficult area for feminist academic and other <pause dur="0.6"/> because of the ambiguity <pause dur="0.3"/> between ideas of gender sex and sexuality and sexual orientation <pause dur="0.5"/> it all becomes a tremendous muddle <pause dur="0.3"/> and this is partly because <pause dur="0.5"/> of <pause dur="0.4"/> a really wrong habit of thought again a tabloid idea <pause dur="0.6"/> that <pause dur="0.3"/> # <trunc>w</trunc> <pause dur="0.3"/> <trunc>s</trunc> women who

love their own sex are <pause dur="0.7"/> masculine that they're an intermediate sex somewhere <pause dur="0.4"/> and that men who love their own sex are feminine <pause dur="0.2"/> they've become an intermediate sex as well <pause dur="0.5"/> now i think that's <pause dur="0.2"/> wrong <pause dur="0.2"/> i think <pause dur="0.3"/> # homosociality and <pause dur="0.2"/> homosexuality are <pause dur="1.1"/> extreme forms <pause dur="0.2"/> of <pause dur="0.6"/> the cultural entity <trunc>call</trunc> that i call masculinity <pause dur="0.4"/> they're actually <pause dur="0.2"/> hypermasculine <pause dur="0.2"/> there's not they're not gender free they're actually gender intensive <pause dur="0.6"/> and they <pause dur="0.7"/> in the case of male homosexuality gender relationships <pause dur="0.4"/> are acted out in a very power oriented way <pause dur="0.6"/> now i take the Dworkin line although you've got to be very careful with this 'cause it alienates people very quickly <pause dur="0.6"/> that penetrative sex is a power relationship <pause dur="0.3"/> that that's <pause dur="0.3"/> part of its grammar <pause dur="1.0"/> # and you can't until we actually <pause dur="1.2"/> completely transform relationships you can't get rid of that that's there <pause dur="0.2"/> it's right inside the idea as long as you can say to somebody you don't like <pause dur="0.4"/> get fucked <pause dur="0.3"/> or bugger you <pause dur="0.2"/> you're actually endorsing <pause dur="0.3"/> this destructive view of

penetrative sex <pause dur="0.8"/> # and i don't think <pause dur="0.4"/> that penetrative sex can <pause dur="0.4"/> redeem itself <pause dur="0.3"/> from this association it's too closely <pause dur="0.8"/> bound up <pause dur="1.9"/> so <pause dur="0.9"/> if i take <trunc>wo</trunc> <pause dur="0.3"/> women lovers of their own sex <pause dur="0.4"/> it they're seems to me they're not part of a <unclear>raw sharp lot</unclear> <pause dur="0.3"/> with <pause dur="0.2"/> <trunc>homosexu</trunc> male homosexuality in fact it's always struck me <pause dur="0.4"/> as a really difficult relationship <pause dur="0.5"/> between male homosexuality and <pause dur="0.2"/> if i may use the term <pause dur="0.2"/> female homosexuality they just don't match <pause dur="0.6"/> they don't even have the same <pause dur="0.2"/> view of relationships they don't have the same <pause dur="0.4"/> set of priorities it's a very awkward relationship <pause dur="0.5"/> but it's typical <pause dur="0.2"/> of women <pause dur="0.4"/> that they would actually work harder <pause dur="0.3"/> for H-I-V and AIDS <pause dur="0.5"/> than they do say for cervical cancer <pause dur="0.5"/> they're very willing to understand what is in fact in large <pause dur="0.2"/> it's actually a very strong expression of misogyny <pause dur="0.9"/> but we pardon <pause dur="0.5"/> homosexual misogyny or we ignore it <pause dur="0.5"/> or we don't understand the profoundly <pause dur="0.3"/> nuanced nature of the kind of relationship <pause dur="0.2"/> that we have <pause dur="0.4"/> with the homosexual <pause dur="0.5"/> # <trunc>s</trunc> # <pause dur="0.5"/> stylists you know the

lifestyle theorists <pause dur="0.4"/> but all of this is really <pause dur="0.3"/> for me <pause dur="0.4"/> difficult and interesting <pause dur="0.5"/> because <pause dur="1.1"/> as i say in my book i haven't given up hope of meeting the woman of my dreams and loving as i have never loved before <pause dur="0.6"/> because if i look at the story of so many <pause dur="0.2"/> gay women <pause dur="0.2"/> they have actually <pause dur="0.4"/> been through real transformations to become active as gay women <pause dur="0.5"/> whereas a homosexual man <pause dur="0.2"/> is more likely to be out <pause dur="0.2"/> very young <pause dur="0.6"/> and <pause dur="0.5"/> <trunc>t</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> if he's in the closet to be <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> faking <pause dur="0.3"/> heterosexual life <pause dur="0.7"/> women tend to have actually lived heterosexual life and then to make a choice or <pause dur="0.8"/> some essentialists would say that the real her has come out <pause dur="0.8"/> i think that the real her connects the two things the heterosexual her <pause dur="0.4"/> and the homosexual her <pause dur="0.5"/> # that she <trunc>h</trunc> and she may have changed indeed she may have grown up <pause dur="0.5"/> in the sense that she has finally rejected the patriarchal paradigm <pause dur="0.4"/> wanting to love her father <pause dur="0.5"/> and she is now loving someone <pause dur="0.4"/> of her own generation she has at last come into <pause dur="0.5"/> spiritual equality and equilibrium

with herself <pause dur="0.7"/> i don't think these things are innate i do think they are cultural i think <pause dur="1.1"/> looking for differences in the cochlea or the you know the anterior something or other <pause dur="0.4"/> fissure of the corpus cavernosum and so on <pause dur="0.4"/> that all this is fascist nonsense <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> and <pause dur="0.6"/> we have the right to be <pause dur="0.2"/> gay <pause dur="0.3"/> and the possibility of being gay as women <pause dur="0.6"/> with men it's slightly different because there is such an extraordinary set of power relationships revolving within <pause dur="0.4"/> gay culture itself <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="1.8"/> so this then brings me to the whole question of transsexuals now if we think about my gay friends my gay friends get <trunc>terrib</trunc> men i mean get terribly angry about transsexuals they say <pause dur="0.5"/> they're just gay men <pause dur="0.2"/> who can't come to terms with the fact that they're gay <pause dur="0.4"/> and they have and and that they desire men sexually so they have to have themselves mutilated and make themselves into fake women <pause dur="0.6"/> this is a very hard view <pause dur="0.6"/> # but i don't think it should be automatically discounted because for me <pause dur="0.4"/> the core of this is

in the mutilation of the body <pause dur="0.3"/> as i've said to you i i take the body as a repository of feminist value <pause dur="0.8"/> because we build it <pause dur="1.2"/> the things you see around you have all been built out of one out of a woman's bodily substance whether they're male or female or <pause dur="0.5"/> tattooed or pierced <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>or <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.5"/> transsexual or whatever <pause dur="0.7"/> # and that all the things that technology does to them <pause dur="0.5"/> are in some ways an attempt to prise <pause dur="0.6"/> to prise away the maternal principle <pause dur="0.4"/> and to devalue the maternal principle <pause dur="0.6"/> # the patriarchy although we're being told we've got equality what i think has happened at <pause dur="0.5"/> as we approach the millennium <pause dur="0.5"/> is that patriarchy is triumphant <pause dur="0.5"/> and it is triumphant in the sense that it has managed to <pause dur="0.7"/> bleed all the meaning <pause dur="0.3"/> out of <pause dur="0.5"/> maternity we don't have matriarchy so there's no point my even using the term <pause dur="0.4"/> it's managed to bleed the significance out of it <pause dur="0.4"/> to criminalize it and marginalize it as <pause dur="0.4"/> a kind of survival <pause dur="0.2"/> kind of evolutionary survival that we can improve upon <pause dur="0.4"/> we can improve

upon it with <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.6"/> forced contraception for fourteen year olds <pause dur="0.4"/> # we can <trunc>i</trunc> we'll make them sterile even though they're not <pause dur="0.2"/> you know we'll keep them like that and <trunc>ma</trunc> and they'll be totally in our power totally dependent on us <pause dur="0.6"/> then when they come to bear children we'll <pause dur="0.2"/> first of all we'll vet them <pause dur="0.2"/> then we'll genetically counsel them and then we'll scan them and so they go on all the time <pause dur="0.3"/> and what is being borne in on them is that their bodies are unsatisfactory <pause dur="0.2"/> that without the technology they don't function at all <pause dur="0.6"/> so it's become really important for me to say they do they <trunc>s</trunc> they function better than <pause dur="0.2"/> any of the substitutions <pause dur="0.9"/> that all the effects of the technology are dubious <pause dur="0.6"/> now one of the most <pause dur="0.5"/> crucial points is this one <pause dur="1.1"/> of <pause dur="1.4"/> treating <pause dur="0.6"/> <trunc>o</trunc> of in first of all of arriving at a malady called gender dysphoria <pause dur="1.2"/> now i reckon all women suffer from gender dysphoria <pause dur="1.0"/> but the problem isn't in <pause dur="0.3"/> as it were their sex <pause dur="0.6"/> it is in the construction of gender <pause dur="0.4"/> that denies so many

aspects of their <pause dur="0.2"/> corporeal reality <pause dur="0.5"/> that the problem is not the body <pause dur="0.5"/> the problem is the gender <pause dur="0.6"/> and i would say that for casualties <pause dur="0.2"/> of the masculinizing system <pause dur="0.4"/> the same thing is true <pause dur="0.5"/> that what they should be doing <pause dur="0.4"/> is revolutionizing masculinity rather than <pause dur="0.7"/> attacking the body <pause dur="0.9"/> and destroying it destroying healthy tissue </u><u who="sf1097" trans="latching"> can i just say what <pause dur="0.3"/> what <unclear>partly</unclear> <pause dur="0.2"/> what is your opinion of female to male transsexuals </u><pause dur="1.3"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> isn't it it's very interesting <pause dur="0.2"/> again there's a <pause dur="0.2"/> terrific contrast <pause dur="1.2"/> if you look in any phone booth in Soho you will see <pause dur="0.2"/> that half the people working as prostitutes in Soho are transsexual <pause dur="1.3"/> male to female transsexual <pause dur="0.3"/> there is not a single one there <pause dur="0.2"/> who is <pause dur="0.6"/> female to male <pause dur="1.8"/> a female to male transsexual <pause dur="0.2"/> does not call attention to her own state <pause dur="0.8"/> one of the interesting dialogues that goes on with male to female transsexuals is that they demand the right <pause dur="0.3"/> to describe their condition <pause dur="0.3"/><shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/> but they <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/> won't let anybody else <pause dur="0.2"/> mention it there's this sort of <pause dur="0.3"/>

tremendous censorship you have to pretend <pause dur="0.7"/> that you haven't noticed anything <pause dur="0.4"/> and then they get a chance to tell you and to <pause dur="0.2"/> give you their text about it <pause dur="1.3"/> female to male <pause dur="1.3"/> very few <pause dur="0.3"/> phalloplasties <pause dur="0.2"/> very very few <pause dur="1.0"/> the the the operation really doesn't work <pause dur="1.1"/> and one of the things the surgeons say to women presenting for phalloplasty <pause dur="0.2"/> is <pause dur="0.5"/> that they may never have an orgasm again <pause dur="0.3"/> because of course it destroys the structures of the clitoris <pause dur="1.2"/> # so <pause dur="0.5"/> you've actually got <pause dur="0.8"/> a group of people first of all very many fewer <pause dur="0.7"/> than the men <pause dur="0.6"/> and the other thing is they nearly <pause dur="0.2"/> all have some adrenal <pause dur="1.2"/> dysfunction <pause dur="2.0"/> so that they are actually physically intersexual <pause dur="0.2"/> usually they have <pause dur="0.2"/> polycystic ovarian syndrome so they're short of oestrogen <pause dur="0.5"/> so that already they are masculinized and probably sterile if they have these <pause dur="0.2"/> adrenal condition </u><u who="sf1097" trans="overlap"> now how do you know that though </u><pause dur="0.6"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> because they're all </u><u who="sf1097" trans="overlap"> how do you how do you know <unclear>they're syndromes</unclear> </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> well there's endless

papers written on it there are some people who work on nothing else <pause dur="1.4"/> and they're forever i mean <pause dur="0.5"/> they publish <pause dur="0.3"/> hundreds of papers on <pause dur="0.2"/> vulvovaginoplasty </u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="sf1097" trans="pause"> i mean i'm i'm i mean i would be <pause dur="0.9"/> fairly sceptical <pause dur="0.2"/> sceptical about that really <pause dur="0.4"/> 'cause i would want to know how many female to male transsexuals they <pause dur="0.7"/> # did tests on <pause dur="0.7"/> to find that information out i mean i would like <pause dur="0.2"/> i mean i would like to place <pause dur="0.2"/> a bet that <pause dur="0.2"/> there would be more <pause dur="0.7"/> female to male transsexuals that have no <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> you know <pause dur="1.8"/> no no such physicalities really </u><pause dur="1.9"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> well we can only talk about the ones who actually put themselves in the hands of the of the medical establishment who are actually seeking <pause dur="0.4"/> surgery </u><u who="sf1097" trans="overlap"> mm </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> about <trunc>e</trunc> # <pause dur="0.2"/> other groups we know nothing </u><u who="sf1097" trans="pause"> mm </u><pause dur="0.5"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> # but it's also interesting <pause dur="0.4"/> that <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.8"/> what <pause dur="0.3"/> male to <trunc>fe</trunc> what female to male transsexuals most want <pause dur="0.2"/> is to be able to <pause dur="0.6"/> pass as men in the sense for example they're very anxious about <pause dur="0.2"/> being able to urinate standing up that's one of their reasons for coming for <pause dur="0.3"/> some form of of

genital surgery <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> but the the other thing is that <pause dur="0.6"/> # they're very much less exhibitionist <pause dur="0.7"/> too <pause dur="0.8"/> and <pause dur="0.3"/> one <pause dur="0.4"/> it would seem very much less sexually active <pause dur="0.2"/> they're <pause dur="0.7"/> completely contrasting group <pause dur="1.0"/> and their <pause dur="0.2"/> problems and their ways of defining them are very different <pause dur="0.7"/> now there are there are the people like Mark who has written his story <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> but they are very rare <pause dur="0.2"/> whereas <pause dur="0.5"/> the <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> male to female transsexuals who have <pause dur="0.7"/> told their story <pause dur="0.6"/> # publicly are <pause dur="0.2"/> very common </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="sf1097" trans="pause"> mm </u><pause dur="0.8"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> and you see there's lots the the research is awful <pause dur="0.9"/> the <pause dur="0.4"/> if you really want to give yourself a <pause dur="0.2"/> a nasty turn all you need to do is have a look at <pause dur="0.4"/> the Journal of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery to look at what they're constructing as vaginas and they make you feel absolutely giddy <pause dur="0.9"/> # <pause dur="2.0"/> and then # <pause dur="0.6"/> nowadays of course they're <trunc>diag</trunc> they're diagnosing now think about this from your own position if it was a child of yours they're diagnosing gender dysphoria <pause dur="0.3"/> in sixteen year olds <pause dur="0.4"/> and putting them on hormones as a preparation for

surgery and they're carrying out surgery younger and younger <pause dur="0.9"/> i mean at a certain point i think we have to stop and say no hang on surgery is not the treatment for this problem <pause dur="0.9"/> what you're creating you're actually destroying this person's fertility <pause dur="0.8"/> the papers are very odd i mean the papers say things like <pause dur="0.6"/> there is no higher index of psychiatric disorder after surgery than there was before <pause dur="1.1"/> but that's all they can say <pause dur="0.3"/> they can't say they cured anything <pause dur="1.5"/> you see and there's been lots of <pause dur="0.3"/> there's lots and lots of research <pause dur="0.4"/> Johns Hopkins have <pause dur="0.8"/> published <pause dur="0.4"/> several papers on <pause dur="0.3"/> their single operation <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="1.2"/> paradigm for sex change <pause dur="0.6"/> # which has turned out to be something like three-point-five operations they're difficult operations to do <pause dur="0.8"/> and they're not justified on health grounds they're not therapeutic <pause dur="0.5"/> unless you really believe that there's something called gender dysphoria <pause dur="0.4"/> and unless you believe that # creating a sterile female in place of a fertile male is the treatment for gender

dysphoria <pause dur="0.6"/> in ordinary hippocratic terms it really shouldn't be <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.8"/> and then of course they make things really complicated by making no distinction <pause dur="0.5"/> between <pause dur="0.2"/> transvestites and transsexuals <pause dur="0.4"/> or between the sorts of transsexuals who work in the sex industry in Latin countries <pause dur="0.4"/> who have breasts <pause dur="0.3"/> and have <pause dur="0.2"/> hips that are pumped up with silicone oil <pause dur="0.4"/> and also have penises and are expected to bugger their clients i mean the whole thing is a <pause dur="0.6"/> nightmare <pause dur="0.5"/> but in terms of <pause dur="0.2"/> intellectual respectability the whole field i think is pretty <pause dur="0.5"/> pretty crummy <pause dur="0.6"/> and then there's the other aspect which is when somebody like Janice Raymond <pause dur="0.4"/> writes seriously and thoughtfully about it <pause dur="0.7"/> the # People For Change web site <pause dur="0.2"/> says things like <pause dur="0.5"/> # she had better invest in flameproof underpants <pause dur="0.9"/> i don't think <pause dur="0.8"/> that that bears out their case very well i mean it's so sadistic <pause dur="0.6"/> and so <pause dur="0.2"/> genitally fixated when it comes to thinking of a punishment for a woman who's spoken out of turn <pause dur="0.8"/> i think it indicates that certain

things haven't changed at all <pause dur="1.2"/> so i think this is <pause dur="0.2"/> <trunc>m</trunc> my own feeling about all the sex change operations that are happening now <pause dur="1.5"/> and you have to understand that there's a pathology attached to them as well they're terribly expensive <pause dur="1.6"/> they are part of a polyoperational <pause dur="0.6"/> syndrome <pause dur="0.6"/> because it's not enough to have vulvovaginoplasty <pause dur="0.5"/> you then have <pause dur="0.3"/> # breasts <pause dur="0.2"/> chin reduction nose reduction a nose job is said to be more important in a sex change <trunc>m</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> male to female <pause dur="0.4"/> than the phalloplasty <pause dur="0.3"/> because it's what changes the contour of the face <pause dur="0.5"/> you can have your cheeks plumped out you have your hairline electronically altered <pause dur="0.3"/> you have <pause dur="0.2"/> <trunc>h</trunc> <pause dur="0.3"/> fifty sixty sessions of <trunc>el</trunc> electrolysis <pause dur="0.7"/> and a lot of people work in the sex industry because they're trying to pay the cost of all these operations <pause dur="0.5"/> so in terms of of the ordinary therapeutic discourse <pause dur="0.3"/> it's time someone took a really hard look at what is being done to these people <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> and i see them <pause dur="0.2"/> as victims of the same system <pause dur="0.4"/> of <pause dur="0.2"/> gender injustice <pause dur="0.3"/> that affects every woman <pause dur="0.5"/>

who has to think about her body in this same <trunc>u</trunc> <pause dur="0.3"/> distrustful way <pause dur="0.5"/> and who is encouraged to think of it as something that surgery could fix <pause dur="0.6"/> you know what <pause dur="0.3"/> i've got <pause dur="0.3"/> i've got heavy bleeding <pause dur="0.3"/> get it out you know the whole <pause dur="0.5"/> cut me open and i'll be better idea <pause dur="0.6"/> which is something i think that we've <pause dur="0.6"/> we're losing the battle against i mean one in <trunc>f</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> one out of every two women in California will be buried without her womb <pause dur="1.2"/> it will have gone west somewhere along the line <pause dur="0.2"/> and it's i think it's all part of the same thing <pause dur="0.7"/> that the problem is about current pieties there's a you can't say this is <pause dur="0.2"/> pathological behaviour <pause dur="0.5"/> stop and look at what you're doing stop and think <pause dur="0.8"/> and the the five Dutch doctors who <pause dur="0.2"/> make the prettiest vaginas that is to say the least horrifying ones <pause dur="1.3"/> are gods <pause dur="0.7"/> and they're all <pause dur="0.5"/> need i tell you <pause dur="0.3"/> male <pause dur="1.3"/> so <pause dur="1.9"/> it's a tricky discourse i know and i'll get hate mail but there's nothing new about that <pause dur="1.5"/><vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" dur="1"/> </u><pause dur="2.2"/> <u who="sf1098" trans="pause"> well i have problems with women <pause dur="0.2"/> i

have <vocal desc="laugh" iterated="n"/> problems with this notion that that <pause dur="0.2"/> there's there's some kind of natural woman who exists the the womb thing 'cause you you've brought your <pause dur="0.2"/> your # <pause dur="0.3"/> publicity material i understand <pause dur="0.4"/> is that right </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> no i didn't </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="sf1098" trans="pause"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/></u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> we have got it here today <pause dur="0.3"/> they're here </u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="sf1098" trans="pause"> yeah <pause dur="0.3"/> that's what i said </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> they've just come today <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> <pause dur="0.9"/> yeah </u><u who="sf1098" trans="overlap"> 'cause i <pause dur="0.2"/> i mean i'm not sure what kind of message we're sending out especially if we're thinking about generational difference and such like if we're locating women as some kind of natural <pause dur="0.4"/> womb carrier <pause dur="0.8"/> and <pause dur="0.2"/> that's what we're are that's where we're located so maybe you'd like to talk a bit about that <pause dur="0.3"/> is that the political stand that we need to take is that the box that we stand on to place ourselves in the world </u><pause dur="2.7"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> well now this is what the first talk i gave was really about <pause dur="0.2"/> # the whole problem about what a woman is <pause dur="1.3"/> # <pause dur="0.9"/> i mean there's there's really <pause dur="0.2"/> difficult problems for feminists all along this <pause dur="0.3"/> parameter <pause dur="0.6"/> # men are able to say they exist as the sort of

generic human being we are it <pause dur="1.0"/> # but in fact it turns out that men define themselves as people with penises <pause dur="0.5"/> and we have found this out because of what happens <pause dur="0.3"/> at the level of <pause dur="0.3"/> boys born with insufficient evidence of presence of a penis <pause dur="0.5"/> they get surgically changed into women <pause dur="0.4"/> so <pause dur="0.2"/> i have to reject the definition i think of a woman as a person without a penis <pause dur="1.1"/> # <pause dur="0.9"/> i am not just a non-man <pause dur="0.2"/> this is why we rejected the term woman or tried to <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> what i try to say is look the X-X chromosome is the <pause dur="0.5"/> the whole one <pause dur="0.3"/> the X-Y chromosome is the damaged one i mean every biologist knows that <pause dur="0.7"/> # </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="sf1099" trans="pause"> but it's not as simple as that is it we're not just X-X or X-Y we're X-X-X-Y X-X-X-Y Y-X or i don't know </u><u who="nf1091" trans="latching"> well not very many of us <pause dur="0.3"/> it's </u><u who="sf1099" trans="latching"> i think a lot of people are </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> but <pause dur="0.3"/> but i think <pause dur="0.2"/> oh well that's not true </u><pause dur="0.7"/> <u who="sf1099" trans="pause"> but <pause dur="0.3"/> </u> <u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> # but it is </u><u who="sf1097" trans="overlap"> we're not tested are we we're not all tested <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/></u><u who="sf1099" trans="overlap"> but you

rely a lot on science this is what <pause dur="0.2"/> one of the things that bothers me is you rely a lot on science <pause dur="0.3"/> knowledge that </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> well </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="sf1099" trans="pause"> that can well my friend the scientist comes in a lot and tells me that this is right and this is wrong <pause dur="0.7"/> so we have a kind of good science that follows the stories we like <pause dur="0.5"/> and a bad science that follows the stories we don't like well we all do that <pause dur="0.2"/> we're selective about what we pick </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> mm </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="sf1099" trans="pause"> so you kind of you seem to me to want to have the authority of the argument but throw away the products of it <pause dur="0.9"/> except in those cases where it's easily fitted <pause dur="0.9"/> into a kind of division that's maintained there are men on this side and women on this side <pause dur="0.7"/> men have willies and women have wombs and that's it <pause dur="0.6"/> and that's what people are </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> but i didn't but i didn't <trunc>s</trunc> actually say that <pause dur="0.4"/> what i actually said there's lots of women are still women and don't have uteruses </u><u who="sf1099" trans="overlap"> and you can't oppose a uterus against a penis like you were to a <pause dur="1.3"/> yeah <pause dur="0.2"/> and i want to i want to kind of <pause dur="0.4"/> foreground this body <pause dur="0.3"/> instead of this body <pause dur="0.9"/> but doesn't that just kind

of <pause dur="0.4"/> lock us in that conflict all the time how are we going to escape it </u><pause dur="0.6"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> well i don't think we can you see i think the conflict is a real one <pause dur="1.1"/> # it'd be nice we've we've talked about the world as if it's post-gender <pause dur="0.3"/> but actually it's not <pause dur="0.7"/> and <pause dur="0.3"/> # tricking us into talking about it as if it were <pause dur="0.4"/> means that we there's no way we can defend our own interest we have to agree that there is no interest so <pause dur="0.9"/> if i point out to you that the womb <pause dur="0.2"/> is actually a locus of misogyny <pause dur="0.8"/> that it is <trunc>e</trunc> women's own misogyny is expressed through their attitude towards their wombs and appendages <pause dur="0.6"/> then that seems to me a point that has to be made <pause dur="0.6"/> that <pause dur="1.1"/> it interests me that women have no imagery of themselves as <pause dur="0.4"/> potently sexed <pause dur="0.3"/> creatures <pause dur="0.5"/> that they are being <pause dur="0.2"/> presented to themselves as if they had in their <pause dur="0.5"/> if you think of Barbie Barbie has no genitals at all <pause dur="0.3"/> i'm told that Ken has <pause dur="0.5"/> something he has a bulge of <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> some sort <pause dur="0.8"/> # Barbie has these <pause dur="0.2"/> peculiar tits i've met my i met two Barbie dolls <pause dur="0.6"/> on

Monday Tuesday whenever <pause dur="0.8"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> and very strange they are too <pause dur="0.4"/> i i'm amazed that you can't <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>stand them up <pause dur="0.4"/><vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> they've got to be <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/>carried at all times <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> so <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="3"/> <pause dur="1.5"/> no i don't i don't want to i don't want to say that you are your womb <pause dur="0.9"/> but on the other hand i don't want to say <pause dur="0.3"/> that women are not real <pause dur="1.4"/> you see it seems to me that as long as <pause dur="0.2"/> femaleness was a marker for inferiority <pause dur="0.5"/> it was recognized <pause dur="0.5"/> when we said <pause dur="0.3"/> femaleness is not a marker for inferiority <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> then it was denied <pause dur="0.3"/> okay you don't want to be a marker for inferiority you needn't exist at all <pause dur="0.6"/> we'll have men and we'll have non-gendered people <pause dur="0.5"/> we'll have men and we'll have this big grab bag in which we put all the other people who aren't us <pause dur="0.4"/> and we won't trouble our heads too much <pause dur="0.3"/> about whether they're <pause dur="0.3"/> genetically or <pause dur="0.5"/> # chromosomally intersexual or not that's all unimportant we don't care <pause dur="0.4"/> now <pause dur="0.2"/> i realize <pause dur="0.2"/> what <pause dur="0.2"/> i realize the essentialist <pause dur="0.4"/> risk in this discourse <pause dur="0.6"/> but <pause dur="0.2"/> it seems to me <pause dur="0.9"/> that even if you're a if you're a girl <pause dur="0.7"/>

born without a womb <pause dur="0.7"/> then this is a <trunc>partic</trunc> is <pause dur="0.2"/> is a <pause dur="0.2"/> a destiny <pause dur="0.2"/> and this is you're a female a wombless <pause dur="0.2"/> female <pause dur="0.5"/> just as a boy born without a penis is a penisless <pause dur="0.4"/> male <pause dur="0.4"/> somewhere along the line <pause dur="0.8"/> if i'm to protect my subject at all <pause dur="0.2"/> i have to say <pause dur="0.5"/> that i consist in something <pause dur="0.5"/> and what i <pause dur="0.2"/> arrived at <pause dur="0.2"/> was <pause dur="0.9"/> this notion of X-X chromosome now there are <pause dur="0.5"/> there are lots of interesting things about it <pause dur="0.8"/> i was fascinated to see that <pause dur="0.3"/> all the first I-V-F babies were girls <pause dur="1.1"/> and they did seem to be very much more viable than boys at that level <pause dur="0.6"/> there is a big difference in being a creature <pause dur="0.2"/> that is organized to nourish other creatures <pause dur="0.7"/> and a creature that isn't there's a huge contrast there <pause dur="0.7"/> # i don't like the <pause dur="0.3"/> the sociobiological arguments that say that all men are in reproductive competition therefore <pause dur="0.4"/> they're going to be promiscuous and therefore they're going to be warlike and so forth <pause dur="0.3"/> as these strike me as being very oversimplified <pause dur="1.4"/> and i don't want to apply them at that level <pause dur="0.6"/> but then i do <pause dur="0.3"/> have to

look at how women live <pause dur="0.5"/> and <pause dur="0.2"/> how for example <pause dur="0.5"/> homosociality is not <pause dur="0.8"/> possible for women <pause dur="0.2"/> because they bring up <pause dur="0.2"/> boys they live they're the ones who live in an enforcibly heterosexual environment <pause dur="0.4"/> whereas men choose <pause dur="0.2"/> a <trunc>homos</trunc> a homosocial <pause dur="0.2"/> environment <pause dur="0.7"/> so <pause dur="0.4"/> i see i'm i'm very well aware of that <pause dur="0.2"/> danger <pause dur="0.4"/> but it's <pause dur="0.2"/> because i think women are being <pause dur="0.8"/> oppressed through their female bodies and through the denial of those bodies <pause dur="0.4"/> and that is still that was the argument of The Female Eunuch you see <pause dur="0.9"/> # what i say in this book goes further in the sense that i say look <pause dur="0.6"/> femininity is better done <pause dur="0.2"/> by transsexuals they're more feminine than we are <pause dur="0.7"/> they've got what you want they've got no hips you've decided that hips are disgusting <pause dur="0.6"/> # and they've got hard breasts you've decided that soft breasts are ridiculous <pause dur="0.6"/> you see when you hear i hear my god-children saying you know i ran along the beach the other day <pause dur="0.7"/> and the boys were all laughing <pause dur="0.8"/> because they said my breasts slopped up and down <pause dur="0.6"/> this is a sixteen

year old <pause dur="0.9"/> because Baywatch tits don't slop up and down <pause dur="1.3"/> they stay firmly anchored on the ribcage <pause dur="1.9"/> so you've got to say to her <pause dur="0.2"/> <trunc>y</trunc> <trunc>y</trunc> what i need to do it's part of my crusade <pause dur="0.6"/> is to reinvest that body <pause dur="0.3"/> that <pause dur="1.0"/> leaky incontinent smelly <pause dur="0.3"/> hairy <pause dur="0.4"/> hippy body <pause dur="0.5"/> with <pause dur="0.2"/> beauty grace and dignity <pause dur="0.5"/> because the price of <pause dur="0.3"/> post-gendering it <pause dur="0.7"/> so that <pause dur="0.4"/> Dana International is more beautiful than any woman built woman in the world <pause dur="0.6"/> is being paid by our children <pause dur="1.0"/> and i am <pause dur="0.8"/> horrified <pause dur="0.5"/> at <pause dur="0.3"/> the misery <pause dur="0.3"/> of little girls which is much worse than anything that it <trunc>wh</trunc> that it was <pause dur="0.2"/> thirty years ago <pause dur="0.5"/> we have a report from again <pause dur="0.2"/> a <trunc>gen</trunc> a a gender issue that wasn't dealt with in this morning's news <pause dur="0.7"/> the report that <trunc>te</trunc> # twenty per cent of children are suffering mental disease of one sort or another <pause dur="0.3"/> and ten per cent of them are in need of clinical help <pause dur="0.3"/> what are the diseases they're suffering from <pause dur="0.2"/> depression and anorexia <pause dur="0.3"/> you know the figures girls more likely than boys by nine to one to suffer from anorexia <pause dur="0.3"/> and four times more

likely to suffer from depression <pause dur="0.3"/> that was a gender issue <pause dur="0.9"/> but it was presented as <pause dur="0.2"/> this <pause dur="0.2"/> post-gender <pause dur="0.9"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> category of <pause dur="0.2"/> of </u><u who="sf1099" trans="overlap"> it's also a class issue <pause dur="0.3"/> also a class issue and a race issue as well isn't it <pause dur="0.4"/> </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> sure </u><u who="sf1099" trans="overlap"> the the there's the there's always the problem when you <pause dur="0.6"/> take a political stand which universalizes <pause dur="0.4"/> that a good proportion of <unclear>the people</unclear> <pause dur="0.2"/> probably the majority of people speaking don't fall into the category that you're trying to attract <pause dur="0.6"/> you're trying to address <pause dur="0.9"/> you know </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> i'm not i'm not very worried about that i mean </u><u who="sf1099" trans="overlap"> well <pause dur="0.2"/> you know that # i think it's one in twenty-two if we're going to use statistics one in <pause dur="0.2"/> two-hundred-and-twenty-two girls in a comprehensive school are likely to be anorexic one in fifteen in a private school one in fourteen if they go to a dance school <pause dur="0.2"/> <vocal desc="clears throat" iterated="n"/> it's very <pause dur="0.4"/> culturally defined </u> <u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> you know i don't agree with that figure <pause dur="0.4"/> i gave prizes in a state school </u><u who="sf1099" trans="latching"> mm </u><u who="nf1091" trans="latching"> three weeks ago <pause dur="0.7"/> and <pause dur="0.4"/> two-thirds of the girls

in the top <pause dur="0.8"/> # at the top A <pause dur="0.5"/> # level of the # <pause dur="0.8"/> of A-levels so ones who got starred As and so on <pause dur="0.2"/> two-thirds of them <pause dur="0.4"/> were emaciated </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="sf1099" trans="pause"> mm <pause dur="0.4"/> i've i mean you can you can bandy figures from personal experience </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> mm </u><u who="sf1099" trans="overlap"> well i'm just saying it's probably not as not as straightforward as simply saying well we're there are women <pause dur="0.4"/> and we're like this </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> i'm well aware of that </u><u who="sf1099" trans="overlap"> and a </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> but the point is if you <pause dur="0.3"/> that <pause dur="0.2"/> my argument is about <pause dur="0.3"/> gender <pause dur="0.8"/> i am not qualified to <pause dur="0.2"/> to <pause dur="0.3"/> to take the race issue on for example </u><u who="sf1099" trans="overlap"> why </u><pause dur="0.5"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> because <pause dur="0.2"/> i'd have to argue it from the point of view of of <pause dur="0.4"/> a white <pause dur="0.2"/> woman and that and racism is not my problem </u><u who="sf1102" trans="latching"> <trunc>s</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> it's everybody's problem </u><u who="sf1103" trans="overlap"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/></u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> well <pause dur="0.3"/> but you <trunc>under</trunc> what you understand the meaning of what i'm saying here </u><u who="sf1099" trans="overlap"> no <pause dur="0.4"/> i don't </u><pause dur="0.8"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> well look <pause dur="0.2"/> you could <trunc>i</trunc> it's it's this is the sort of thing that happens to feminists all the time <pause dur="0.5"/> you know i'll be asked why i'm not writing it from

a vegetarian point of view and why i'm not writing it from a green point of view and why i'm not <trunc>writ</trunc> <pause dur="0.3"/> because that's not what i'm writing about <pause dur="0.4"/> i'm actually writing about gender here because i think gender's an important issue <pause dur="0.3"/> and i think this the presumption of post-gender <pause dur="0.4"/> gender freeness <pause dur="0.3"/> is simply denial <pause dur="0.2"/> of femaleness and denial of all kinds of female functions </u><u who="sf1099" trans="latching"> mm </u><u who="nf1091" trans="latching"> so you know now we don't have mothers we have parents <pause dur="0.3"/> except that when you look at those parents they turn out to be mothers isn't that strange <pause dur="0.4"/> and it goes on like this all the time <pause dur="0.3"/> you know <pause dur="0.4"/> # now we talk about the nursing profession as if it was unisex <pause dur="0.4"/> very interesting the nursing profession you know the complaints against nurses are up by five-hundred per cent or something <pause dur="0.3"/> and <trunc>n</trunc> fifty per cent of the complaints are against male nurses <pause dur="0.3"/> likewise if you actually look at although they're only one in seven of the intake or something like that <pause dur="0.4"/> if you look at <pause dur="0.2"/> who sits on the boards and who speaks for nurses <pause dur="0.3"/>

they're disproportionately now male <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> we cannot presume a post-gender world </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="sf1099" trans="pause"> i don't </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> we don't have one <pause dur="0.4"/> well neither do i <pause dur="0.2"/> and and what i've actually written about <pause dur="0.5"/> is <pause dur="0.4"/> the disguised gender issue to be sure this is not to deny that other issues exist <pause dur="0.3"/> but i can't <pause dur="0.2"/> one of the things that's happened to feminism <pause dur="0.4"/> is that it fights on all fronts at once <pause dur="0.7"/> so you find </u><u who="sf1099" trans="overlap"> because you can't fight on a single front any more because the it's shifted </u><pause dur="0.5"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> mm well </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="sf1099" trans="pause"> that <trunc>ca</trunc> </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> i'm going to have a pretty good go with this book </u><u who="sf1099" trans="overlap"> mm </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> that's what this book is doing it's not all books it's not the only book </u><u who="sf1099" trans="overlap"> mm </u><pause dur="0.6"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> it's not your book <pause dur="1.2"/> so go ahead and write <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>your book <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.3"/> and i shall read it with interest </u><pause dur="0.2"/> <u who="sf1099" trans="pause"> okay </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> but in this case this is the argument i'm making because i think people are just <pause dur="0.5"/> being blind about gender they are <pause dur="0.4"/> they're taking the easy way out they're denying <pause dur="0.6"/> <trunc>gen</trunc> the gender aspect of of <pause dur="0.8"/> situations that actually cause women visceral pain and physical <pause dur="0.2"/> harm <pause dur="0.7"/> so this

is where i go right back to stand on my own flat buniony female feet <pause dur="0.4"/> saying we are real we are here <pause dur="0.3"/> and we are hurting and we are hurting because <pause dur="0.4"/> of the attitude you take <pause dur="0.7"/> to the aspects of our reality that you find revolting and i'm going to push them <pause dur="0.3"/> in <pause dur="0.2"/> your <pause dur="0.2"/> face <pause dur="0.8"/> so that every girl with a big bum out there <pause dur="0.8"/> suddenly feels that maybe there is a battle she could join instead of feeling that she's got to keep herself <trunc>a</trunc> <pause dur="0.2"/> out of all human contact whatsoever <pause dur="1.5"/> and that may sound excessive but i do know of at least one case of a girl <pause dur="0.3"/> who wouldn't come out of her room <pause dur="0.3"/> because of the breadth of her hips about which she could do <pause dur="0.3"/> nothing <pause dur="0.6"/> didn't matter if she starved herself to death <pause dur="0.6"/> she still had <pause dur="0.2"/> hip bones which are <pause dur="0.8"/> anathema <pause dur="1.0"/> okay <pause dur="0.4"/> another question </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="sf1104" trans="pause"> i haven't got one <pause dur="0.4"/> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> </u><pause dur="1.6"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> no </u><pause dur="1.2"/> <u who="sf1105" trans="pause"> i <trunc>ha</trunc> <vocal desc="clears throat" iterated="n"/> i can't think of a good enough one but i keep thinking about the fact that <pause dur="1.0"/> when you talk about young women <pause dur="0.8"/> and and i keep going back a bit

further and thinking about <pause dur="0.4"/> young people in infant playgrounds and about how they play and how <pause dur="0.7"/> all <pause dur="0.6"/> what what you've talked about today is so set in <pause dur="0.9"/> by then all the behaviours and <pause dur="0.6"/> all what's happening and all the stuff that you're talking about young girls <pause dur="0.9"/> it it's happening much earlier as well and <pause dur="0.6"/> i wonder what you think about that <pause dur="1.5"/> and how come <pause dur="0.5"/> you know <pause dur="0.2"/> how come it's <pause dur="0.4"/> you know you're talking to <pause dur="0.2"/> <trunc>fo</trunc> five and six year old <pause dur="0.3"/> girls <pause dur="1.1"/> will say all this stuff <pause dur="0.5"/> you know who relate to Barbie dolls <pause dur="0.7"/> boys relate to violent Ken dolls </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> mm </u><u who="sf1105" trans="overlap"> i mean it's so powerful <pause dur="0.7"/> # and scary <pause dur="0.2"/> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/></u> <u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> and i'm belong to the generation of women who tried to bring their children up without any gender streaming at all <pause dur="0.7"/> so that my god-child who was born in my house always wore trousers never had a doll </u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="sf1105" trans="pause"> mm </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> mind you every time her grandmother came to see us she said how terrible the poor little thing hasn't got a doll and i said well she's got a rabbit it's much more interesting than a doll <pause dur="0.6"/> and in the end it became

a question of her civil rights and so the doll appeared <pause dur="0.9"/> there <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>was a very funny moment <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/>because i found the doll soaking wet at the foot of the stairs <pause dur="0.2"/> with no clothes on and i said i found myself <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>saying <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.5"/> oh <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> look at poor <pause dur="5.9"/><kinesic desc="puts hand over mouth" iterated="n"/><vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="5"/> so i just picked up dolly <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>and sort of <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/>got her off the stairs and thought <pause dur="0.5"/> that was a close shave <pause dur="0.7"/><vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> and little <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> when she fell over <pause dur="0.6"/> # if she cried we <pause dur="0.2"/> <trunc>did</trunc> <pause dur="0.3"/> didn't react much but if she was very brave we reacted <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>so we <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/>got to the stage where poor old <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> would fall over and go <vocal desc="gasp" iterated="n"/><pause dur="0.3"/> hup <pause dur="0.3"/> come on <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> <vocal desc="gasp" iterated="n"/> hup <pause dur="0.5"/> <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>and i think oh <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/> i'm sorry <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/>you are allowed to cry but it was <pause dur="0.2"/> it was really

hard <pause dur="0.6"/> and i'm we failed completely because the peer group #<pause dur="0.5"/> culture was so strong <pause dur="0.7"/> and then <pause dur="1.1"/> you think about at what <pause dur="0.6"/> we're coming up to Valentine's Day just have a look at the cultural aspic <pause dur="0.5"/> of Valentine's Day of infantilized women <pause dur="0.5"/> and silly fetishistic toy talk and so on where did it come from <pause dur="0.4"/> they didn't learn it in school <pause dur="0.5"/> # they learned it from <pause dur="0.3"/> the ambient culture which means more to them <pause dur="0.2"/> than school or parents <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> and then but then there's the other thing i mean i've mentioned this a few times because it i'm so struck by it <pause dur="0.5"/> the numbers of studies that have been done <pause dur="0.2"/> on the behaviour of <trunc>w</trunc> <pause dur="0.4"/> mothers with children according to their perception of the gender of the child so <pause dur="0.4"/> they're given a bundle <pause dur="0.5"/> they're told it's a boy <pause dur="0.8"/> and they actually treat it quite differently <pause dur="0.6"/> than they would treat the same bundle if they were told that it was a girl <pause dur="0.7"/> and you know this business of being gender blind one of the things that always cracks me up about vet programmes <pause dur="0.5"/> is the first

thing they find out about an animal when it comes into the surgery is whether it's a little boy or a little girl <pause dur="0.3"/> and then they <trunc>mir</trunc> they meticulously call it her and him <pause dur="0.4"/> when they might just as well call it <pause dur="0.3"/> it <pause dur="0.8"/> because somewhere out there the great public has communicated that they don't like itifying animals that the animals have got to be gendered <pause dur="0.7"/> which <pause dur="0.5"/> as they are not gendered in their social behaviour to anything like the same extent that humans are if you think of cats male and female they don't sort of have <pause dur="0.3"/> sharply contrasting behaviours <pause dur="0.6"/> # it's it's kind of weird it <pause dur="0.2"/> it's <pause dur="0.5"/> reminding you that gender consciousness <pause dur="0.9"/> is not something that can be outlawed if you outlaw it it gets stronger it doesn't get weaker <pause dur="0.8"/> but i am interested too i mean at at what stage is it true <trunc>i</trunc> is it still true <pause dur="0.4"/> that mothers <pause dur="0.4"/> breastfeed crying boy babies in inverted commas if they think they're boy babies <pause dur="0.3"/> more readily than they breastfeed girls <pause dur="0.3"/> breastfeed them for longer <pause dur="0.3"/> interpret <pause dur="0.2"/> all

utterances by the child as utterances for food <pause dur="0.7"/> and subconsciously or consciously expect girls to wait longer and to feed less can this be true <pause dur="0.8"/> and if it's true where the hell did it come from <pause dur="0.4"/> because most of us only have <pause dur="0.4"/> one-point-<shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>four babies or <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/>whatever it is <pause dur="0.4"/> we don't get a chance to actually form ideas of how <pause dur="0.4"/> boy babies might be different from girl babies <pause dur="1.1"/> but then people who do have both will tell you that they're different from the very beginning <pause dur="1.2"/> but <pause dur="0.3"/> i'd i mean i would be sufficiently post-gender to not believe that <pause dur="0.2"/> that you would have <pause dur="0.5"/> lusty demanding girls who fed robustly <pause dur="0.8"/> but i wish i had a shilling for every time a breastfeeding mother has told me that her girl doesn't feed properly and fiddles about and wastes time and so on <pause dur="1.3"/> and we've got we would have to do a lot more work to find out how that <pause dur="0.2"/> all happens <pause dur="0.6"/> # and i'm not too sure that i want <pause dur="0.5"/> a lot more of this scrutiny in the sense that it's a it's an oppression for the people taking part in it <pause dur="0.9"/> but <pause dur="1.2"/>

it looks as if gender typing <pause dur="0.4"/> happens <pause dur="0.3"/> at a very vulnerable <pause dur="0.2"/> stage <pause dur="0.4"/> but you see the other thing is that now we're being told <pause dur="0.6"/> mothers having become a thing called the uterine environment <pause dur="0.7"/> intersexuality is now our fault because we're flooding the fetus with <pause dur="0.4"/> sex hormones in utero <pause dur="0.6"/> and affecting <pause dur="0.2"/> development so <pause dur="1.6"/> if we have feminized boys it's 'cause we produced the wrong juice in utero which <pause dur="0.5"/> is <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> it's all entirely speculative <pause dur="1.0"/> so who knows <pause dur="0.6"/> it's certainly true that boys are more violent in playschool and hit little girls over the head with instruments <pause dur="0.7"/> pick things they seem to think that the <pause dur="0.2"/> the purpose of anything remotely stick-shaped is to <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>hit somebody with <pause dur="0.8"/> # some little girls are like that but <pause dur="0.3"/> really not very many <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="1.0"/> so <pause dur="0.9"/> i think we will find that there are some <pause dur="0.2"/> residues but we're in terms of talking about <pause dur="0.2"/> cultural behaviour we're a long way from those residues so i don't think we need to <pause dur="0.4"/> <trunc>cons</trunc> <pause dur="0.5"/> to convince ourselves that they're immutable <pause dur="2.7"/> next </u><pause dur="0.9"/> <u who="sf1100" trans="pause"> # i'm interested in

what you started off talking about about the Radio Four <pause dur="0.3"/> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> <pause dur="0.3"/> about teenage conceptions i was just wondering <pause dur="1.0"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> put in its <pause dur="0.4"/> kind of wider context <pause dur="0.5"/> it seems to me that # <pause dur="0.5"/> the situation where <pause dur="0.2"/> the rate of teenage mothers can actually <pause dur="0.3"/> have dropped off in the last twenty-five years <pause dur="0.5"/> and has actually <pause dur="0.4"/> come down to some extent but <pause dur="0.3"/> seems to be <pause dur="0.2"/> to me <pause dur="0.9"/> # seems to be a real focus on one point <pause dur="0.4"/> right at the moment <pause dur="0.2"/> just in the last week or so <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="1.0"/> and generally <pause dur="0.9"/> sort of during <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> i was wondering whether <pause dur="0.2"/> whether you agreed with that or you've got your <trunc>s</trunc> <pause dur="1.2"/> whether that had changed at all <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> would you so do you have any comments on that </u><pause dur="2.1"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> the whole thing i think is terribly painful <pause dur="0.4"/> there is so much suffering involved in all of these <pause dur="0.6"/> i <pause dur="0.2"/> really could not believe <pause dur="1.2"/> that anybody <pause dur="0.8"/> even Jack Straw <pause dur="0.2"/> could start talking about <pause dur="0.4"/> pressuring young women to giving up their children which is what he was actually talking about <pause dur="0.5"/> now one of the reasons i can't believe this <pause dur="0.4"/> is that <pause dur="0.3"/> after the Australian Aborigines <pause dur="0.9"/> mounted their great <pause dur="0.3"/> attack on the Australian <pause dur="0.2"/> on Australian society <pause dur="0.4"/> for taking their children away because they were considered

unfit parents because they were inverted commas savages <pause dur="0.8"/> that after the Aborigines did that for us all <pause dur="1.3"/> the young the women who had given away babies in their teens in Australia suddenly realized <pause dur="0.5"/> that in the Salvation Army which was the worst offender <pause dur="0.4"/> and the other religious homes <pause dur="0.4"/> they had never been given the option of going it alone even though state <pause dur="0.6"/> support existed for unsupported mums <pause dur="0.4"/> they weren't told about what was available <pause dur="0.5"/> they were simply given the impression <pause dur="0.2"/> that they'd be unemployable unhousable destitute in the gutter with their children <pause dur="0.3"/> and so with the usual <pause dur="0.3"/> anguish they gave their children up <pause dur="0.3"/> so they could <pause dur="0.5"/> go back and work <pause dur="1.0"/> they are now demanding <pause dur="0.5"/> or they have demanded and got <pause dur="0.5"/> but it's typical they didn't ask for compensation <pause dur="0.5"/> they have demanded and got an apology <pause dur="0.2"/> in Australia <pause dur="0.5"/> this same Natural Parents Association notice they've degendered their own name <pause dur="0.5"/> have come to England to do the same thing for the English women who were forced to give up

children <pause dur="0.3"/> thirty <pause dur="0.2"/> forty years ago <pause dur="0.6"/> # and they've just begun their campaign <pause dur="0.5"/> and in the middle <pause dur="0.2"/> of the beginning of this strong campaign which is really the mothers wanting to say to the children they gave up <pause dur="0.3"/> we loved you we would have kept you if we could <pause dur="0.4"/> which is why they do it i mean they're not doing it 'cause they want to be <pause dur="0.3"/> their heartache to be paid for <pause dur="0.6"/> # they actually want their children to know which i think is a very <pause dur="0.5"/> typical sort of attitude <pause dur="0.6"/> and in the middle of this they started it a month ago or something and Jack Straw stands up and says we're going to make the same mistake all over again because we think most teenage girls can't cope with children <pause dur="1.7"/> well <pause dur="0.4"/> <trunc>h</trunc> where where where's the evidence <pause dur="0.7"/> well the evidence is you know we have children in care we don't want to take them into care yes we don't want you to take them into care either because you bugger them all the <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>time for Christ's sake <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.6"/> # amazing stuff <pause dur="0.6"/> and the they're they're now telling us they're worried about

children in care <pause dur="0.8"/> but they're worried about children with their natural mothers even more <pause dur="0.4"/> i mean it's just so wrong-headed it's unbelievable <pause dur="0.4"/> but it's <pause dur="0.2"/> it's part of this attempt to assuage middle class consciousness that # <pause dur="0.2"/> this new government is not going to be easy <pause dur="0.2"/> on crime and the causes of crime which are of course poverty <pause dur="0.4"/> are they going to let poverty get even worse <pause dur="0.8"/> <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> and the disaffection and grief and misery <pause dur="0.7"/> it's i i couldn't believe it i was astonished <pause dur="0.2"/> i mean i just wished they'd say that # they'd earmark <pause dur="0.2"/> a significant portion of the <pause dur="0.2"/> revenues <pause dur="0.4"/> for the support of mothers <pause dur="0.2"/> married or otherwise <pause dur="1.0"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> if we don't do that we're going to have a <pause dur="0.5"/> a society composed entirely of poor children <pause dur="0.8"/> which is just stupid because poor children cannot cope <pause dur="0.6"/> in a society which requires such a high level of education and preparation <pause dur="0.3"/> even to <pause dur="0.4"/> exist to survive <pause dur="0.6"/> so and they talk about social exclusion and at the same time they're actually <pause dur="0.4"/> they've actually invented it as a

concept <pause dur="0.7"/> there's no such thing as social inclusion society is people <pause dur="0.3"/> but they've decided that <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>there's society <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/>and then there's <pause dur="0.3"/> excluded people ah <pause dur="1.0"/> it's it's all <trunc>s</trunc> i think it's all done in such bad faith <pause dur="0.9"/> it is so cynical <pause dur="1.1"/> so manipulative <pause dur="0.2"/> of the electorate i'm ashamed of this Labour Party </u><gap reason="break in recording" extent="uncertain"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> i've always found it <pause dur="0.5"/> really interesting <pause dur="0.2"/> that <pause dur="1.1"/> at the time when the family the <pause dur="0.2"/> elder generation starts to fall apart <pause dur="0.6"/> the burden naturally falls on the shoulders of <pause dur="0.3"/> the menopausal female <pause dur="0.4"/> the older <pause dur="1.2"/> sister or whatever the daughter <pause dur="0.6"/> and then at a very difficult time in her own life when she's having to come to terms with the endings of things and # and no new beginnings <pause dur="0.5"/> she's also having to embark on this stressful business of <pause dur="0.8"/> shepherding her parents <pause dur="0.7"/> carefully and comfortably out of the world if that's what she can do <pause dur="0.4"/> and there's an aspect of this which i find very interesting and i <trunc>h</trunc> i daren't discuss it in a loud voice because it's going to cause a <pause dur="0.5"/> bit

of a <trunc>sh</trunc> <pause dur="0.7"/> scandal <pause dur="0.7"/> that in those cases that i know of where a sick parent has agreed that she wishes to end her life <pause dur="0.9"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> she has chosen her daughter <pause dur="0.2"/> as her accomplice <pause dur="0.8"/> and that part of the battle between the doctors who now want to take it over and do it <pause dur="0.3"/> is actually again a concealed sort of gender battle <pause dur="0.3"/> we can't just it's like women controlling the birthplace and then suddenly says <pause dur="0.6"/> well Christ they're also controlling the deathplace <pause dur="0.3"/> we can't have that <pause dur="0.2"/> get in there get in there now <pause dur="0.3"/> we should be deciding when these people end their lives we can't just have this <pause dur="0.3"/> you know saving up your <pause dur="0.4"/> your narcotics for the big <pause dur="0.5"/> bang and and your daughter coming and holding you in her arms and <trunc>n</trunc> and so whatever it is that you've decided to do <pause dur="0.5"/> so there's this <pause dur="0.3"/> you daren't talk about this of course it'll be a tremendous fuss if i did <pause dur="0.4"/> but i find it very interesting <pause dur="0.5"/> and i <pause dur="0.2"/> it's terribly hard to find out about because like so much of what women do like abortion used to be <pause dur="0.4"/> we don't talk about it <pause dur="0.4"/>

a daughter who has just killed her mother <pause dur="0.7"/> is not going to sit on the bus stop and say oh by the way last week i knocked my mother off i mean it's <pause dur="0.5"/> <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> you hear about it in very privileged circumstances and it's a very privileged discourse <pause dur="0.4"/> so i'm thinking as i always think because <pause dur="0.4"/> this is why i write at all <pause dur="0.5"/> women don't know that what's happening to them is happening to everybody else <pause dur="1.2"/> so they have a Caesarean <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>and <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/>you say why did you have a Caesarean and they say oh well <pause dur="0.4"/> the baby was labouring and blah blah blah and so forth and i'd been in labour for two-and-a-half hours and <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>whatever <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.3"/> and you say oh really <pause dur="0.5"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> and she believes that her <pause dur="0.2"/> her Caesarean is <pause dur="0.2"/> totally necessary <pause dur="0.3"/> and then you look at the figures and realize they can't be totally necessary how can the healthiest women in the world be needing so many Caesareans <pause dur="0.4"/> so you have to go back but <pause dur="0.3"/> the statistics can never be made to fit cases <pause dur="0.4"/> and everybody <pause dur="0.2"/> takes advantage of that gap <pause dur="0.6"/> and the same

thing is happening now i think with the question of women in the deathplace <pause dur="0.6"/> so that we haven't even realized that maybe there is a relationship and a function to be protected here <pause dur="0.4"/> like there was in the case of abortion <pause dur="1.1"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> it is still interesting to me how much of our lives is secret <pause dur="0.9"/> from <pause dur="1.2"/> other women <pause dur="0.5"/> even other women who are quite close to us <pause dur="0.5"/> and that we still haven't managed to <pause dur="0.3"/> foreground this <pause dur="0.8"/> # and if we did it would be transgressive just like black culture <pause dur="0.2"/> we they would decide that what we had been doing was transgressive and we couldn't do it any more <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> and if you actually if you then think <trunc>ab</trunc> <pause dur="0.4"/> of the nanny crisis in terms of this <pause dur="1.4"/> what are we what are we saying about the nannies <pause dur="0.4"/> not that parents kill children much much much more often than nannies do that is amazingly rare <pause dur="0.3"/> we're saying <pause dur="0.2"/> we want more system of control of nannies we want nannies to be <pause dur="0.3"/> X-rayed fingerprinted tattooed you know we want to be able to <pause dur="0.4"/> track them day and night we want closed-circuit television

on these murdering nannies <pause dur="0.4"/> just think they're <trunc>bec</trunc> and what actually that all means <pause dur="0.4"/> is that the issue is <pause dur="0.2"/> control <pause dur="1.1"/> women are to be <pause dur="0.2"/> controlled any way that we can <pause dur="0.4"/> and we will put them through one system of control after another <pause dur="0.4"/> but most of that control in the late twentieth century <pause dur="0.5"/> is directed at the female body which is transgressive in <pause dur="0.2"/> essence <pause dur="1.2"/> and this is my argument <pause dur="4.3"/> okay well we've got lots more time if you want to </u><pause dur="2.4"/> <u who="sf1101" trans="pause"> i wanted # </u><u who="nf1091" trans="overlap"> or are you getting hungry yet what is it in my i'm probably i've been given this watch </u><u who="sf1106" trans="overlap"> quarter past one </u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> quarter that's what i thought it hasn't got proper numbers on it so i sometimes <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>get it wrong <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> </u><pause dur="1.6"/> <u who="sf1106" trans="pause"> well i'll just say i i i # agreed with some of what you were saying about # <pause dur="0.6"/> children and single mothers <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="0.5"/> wholeheartedly and i think it's very contradicting that on the one hand <pause dur="0.3"/> children get constructed as a private <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.3"/> a private space a private cost a private benefit if you like <pause dur="0.3"/> when actually i think they are they have to be of social consequence of

social benefit <pause dur="0.3"/> but then that isn't very telling because the state intervenes in all sorts of interesting ways and of course we know that it doesn't intervene with all parents in the same way so that there are class issues and race issues and et cetera <pause dur="0.9"/> i think i had a question which came out of your first <pause dur="0.5"/> talk <pause dur="0.3"/> # <pause dur="1.8"/> and it it might just be a <unclear>too big a</unclear> question i don't know <pause dur="0.7"/> i <pause dur="0.2"/> i understood you to be saying that <pause dur="0.5"/> that you would like to keep the sex-gender binary <pause dur="0.4"/> and that <pause dur="0.2"/> # <pause dur="1.6"/> what happened with kind of a a Judith Butler take on that is there's a confusion between sex and sexuality <pause dur="0.5"/> but you didn't have a chance to to go into that and <pause dur="0.2"/> i wondered if you wanted to pursue it <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="1.2"/> i mean <pause dur="1.4"/> yeah <pause dur="0.3"/> <vocal desc="laughter" n="sl" iterated="y" dur="1"/> </u><pause dur="0.3"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> well <pause dur="1.2"/> i mean in a <trunc>gen</trunc> <pause dur="0.6"/> my idea is <pause dur="0.5"/> and has always been and may one of these days be <pause dur="0.2"/> seen as immensely archaic <pause dur="0.8"/> # that there is a thing called male and there's a thing called female there's the strip in between which <trunc>m</trunc> <pause dur="0.6"/> may or may not be highly populated or not <pause dur="0.8"/> but what <pause dur="0.2"/> <trunc>i</trunc> is extrapolated from both these things is <pause dur="0.5"/> masculinity as a cultural entity on

the one hand and femininity as a cultural entity on the other <pause dur="0.8"/> # and neither of these has to do with <pause dur="0.7"/> # the way you express your sexuality which is a a separate question <pause dur="0.5"/> # they have to do with <pause dur="0.6"/> the way that you perceive your they have to do with the cultural <pause dur="0.4"/> structures in which your life makes sense to you <pause dur="0.8"/> so that <pause dur="0.2"/> the <trunc>m</trunc> the male <pause dur="0.2"/> cultural structure is one which is <pause dur="0.5"/> # hierarchical <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.4"/> which is has a number of cementing and bonding mechanisms and <pause dur="0.2"/> that are not well understood by people outside or even necessarily by people inside but the people notice <pause dur="0.6"/> you know that men <pause dur="0.9"/> # joke all the time <pause dur="0.3"/> rather than speaking seriously that they don't really confide they don't have real conversations <pause dur="0.4"/> # and that they share certain kinds of transgressive behaviour <pause dur="0.4"/> # <pause dur="0.2"/> and that they are very quick to <pause dur="0.3"/> create leaders and then to line up behind leaders and then to compete for positions of greater closeness to leaders <pause dur="0.3"/> or indeed to replace leaders and so on and so forth <pause dur="0.7"/> and that they're capable

of building these structures in all sorts of circumstances in prisons in the street in playhouses in <pause dur="0.6"/> in # nursery <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>school <pause dur="0.5"/> and so on <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/>but this <pause dur="0.5"/> these tendencies <pause dur="0.4"/> agglomerating tendencies of men men in groups <pause dur="0.5"/> are important i mean this has been argued for a long time that feminists needed to understand them <pause dur="0.2"/> to defend themselves <pause dur="0.8"/> # because they have ways of dealing with marauders <pause dur="0.6"/> that we still haven't quite understood so they reform and regroup in <trunc>e</trunc> ever more arcane locations <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="2.1"/> where <pause dur="0.4"/> the problem about being women is we don't have those structures <pause dur="0.4"/> we've never had them historically that and so i argued that maybe we should look at <pause dur="0.5"/> segregated societies to see how women construct <pause dur="1.3"/> # <pause dur="1.3"/> how they make social cohesion within the female group or indeed if they make it may be that they don't <pause dur="0.7"/> but i think they do <pause dur="0.8"/> and they do around the figure of a senior woman and so on <pause dur="0.9"/> # but when <pause dur="0.2"/> i mean the connection with sexuality <pause dur="0.3"/> is <pause dur="0.5"/> is one that has that <pause dur="0.2"/> that has to be made i

think with <pause dur="0.9"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> delicacy because <pause dur="0.8"/> of this habit of thought <pause dur="0.7"/> that takes transgressive forms of sexual expression by which i mean <pause dur="0.5"/> not <pause dur="0.2"/> the regulation <pause dur="0.8"/> heterosex <pause dur="0.7"/> # as indications of <pause dur="0.3"/> transsexuality or transgenderism when they're not indications of anything at all <pause dur="1.4"/> # of anything of the kind i should say they're actually <pause dur="0.6"/> expressions of relationship <pause dur="0.9"/> # which <pause dur="0.8"/> make themselves new all the time or one would hope that they did <pause dur="2.3"/> but <pause dur="0.3"/> the whole idea of being you know <pause dur="0.2"/> a sort of <pause dur="1.0"/> cyberborg or something and suddenly being a machine rather than a body <pause dur="0.7"/> this is presented occasionally as a desirable outcome i don't find it desirable at all <pause dur="0.5"/> but i may very well be in a <pause dur="0.3"/> huge minority <pause dur="0.8"/> there may be lots of women looking forward to being <pause dur="0.4"/> cyberborgs <pause dur="0.8"/> cyborgs <pause dur="2.0"/> but i am what i in what particular aspect of this <pause dur="0.6"/> travailed relationship are you interested </u><pause dur="0.4"/> <u who="sf1106" trans="pause"> well i i mean i don't know the debate terribly well but it just <pause dur="0.3"/> it wasn't something that i remember thinking while i was reading that so i just

wanted to hear a bit more and i think i've got <pause dur="0.8"/> and i also got from <gap reason="name" extent="1 word"/>'s question some of the stuff that you were saying then <pause dur="0.4"/> i think i can see some of the connections </u><pause dur="1.4"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> yeah i mean it's a problem for me i don't want to see women defined as wombs but i don't want to see the womb denied all the time either because i really think there's an attack on it <pause dur="0.9"/> # and it's <trunc>exp</trunc> there has been for hundreds of years that it's a dark region like Africa <pause dur="0.4"/> and they want to colonize it they want to get it under control and the result is going to be something like Africa <pause dur="0.4"/> you <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>know an absolute <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.7"/> # social disaster from the point of view of the people struggling to live there <pause dur="0.6"/> what with you know <pause dur="0.8"/> social dislocation outwork prostitution AIDS the whole <pause dur="0.3"/> thing i mean <pause dur="0.5"/> that <pause dur="0.4"/> they've got the same attitude to the unseen part of women that they're busily denying that it's there <pause dur="0.8"/> and i've <pause dur="0.2"/> i am cynical enough to think <pause dur="0.5"/> that at such time as they they can grow babies outside the uterus they will <pause dur="0.5"/> and that when they do that there'll be even

less reason for women to exist <pause dur="0.2"/> and they won't put up with our changeability or <pause dur="0.3"/> they've already criminalized the menstrual cycle i mean i don't even talk about this in my book at all <pause dur="0.6"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> but it's very remarkable to me how that has happened <pause dur="0.5"/> so that everybody i mean people this high know about something called P-M-T <pause dur="0.4"/> and that have to tell you that your behaviour which they disapprove of is actually mediated <pause dur="0.4"/> by your menstrual status <pause dur="0.8"/> i mean that's a very obvious case they don't <trunc>un</trunc> they've never understood the well woman they don't know even know what menstruation is <pause dur="0.2"/> for <pause dur="1.5"/> and it's just now people are beginning to say that maybe <pause dur="0.4"/> it's to protect the sloughing womb from infection <pause dur="0.2"/> maybe menstrual blood has a naturally disinfectant <pause dur="0.2"/> function <pause dur="0.3"/> so instead of being filth that's being sloughed off it's actually <pause dur="0.3"/> the cleansing medium <pause dur="0.8"/> all of these words don't mean a lot all you have to do is flip a switch and think about it that way <pause dur="0.4"/> but remember that i'm still the feminist who's

being <trunc>s</trunc> <pause dur="0.6"/> sneered at because <pause dur="0.6"/> i read in the Guardian i told women i told women <pause dur="0.3"/> to drink their menstrual blood <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="2"/> <pause dur="0.4"/> and said that if they if they didn't do it they weren't feminists <pause dur="1.4"/> <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="2"/> what i <pause dur="0.4"/> <vocal desc="laugh" iterated="n"/> <pause dur="0.5"/> what i actually said was <pause dur="0.6"/> if the idea of tasting your menstrual blood makes you sick <pause dur="1.1"/> then you've got a long way to go <pause dur="0.7"/> because it's just one of the expressions of body hatred <pause dur="0.4"/> that women have to deal with <pause dur="0.6"/> and we are encouraged to think of menstrual blood as excretion <pause dur="0.6"/> and it's so disgusting it's as disgusting as shit <pause dur="0.5"/> you know you sell toilet paper and babies' nappies and women's sanitary napkins <pause dur="0.3"/> by pouring blue water on them <pause dur="0.9"/> <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> my <pause dur="0.3"/> i don't have blue water <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="3"/> i don't know about you <pause dur="2.0"/> but it to me it's really interesting and when the P-M-T you the P-M-T discourse is very is about is quite a lot later than The Female Eunuch <pause dur="0.5"/> and i can remember thinking oh my God <pause dur="0.2"/> not knowing whether to laugh or cry i mean here

we are trying to trying to understand the cycle trying to understand <pause dur="1.1"/> <trunc>m</trunc> <pause dur="0.3"/> <trunc>m</trunc> <pause dur="0.4"/> as it's an aspect of health <pause dur="0.8"/> how does it work <pause dur="0.4"/> i mean we're in the same position as a motor mechanic who <trunc>d</trunc> had no idea of how the internal <pause dur="0.2"/> combustion engine worked <pause dur="0.5"/> we're <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>sort of <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.5"/> looking at our bodies and as we didn't know how they went <pause dur="0.6"/> we didn't know <pause dur="0.3"/> when there was anything wrong with them <pause dur="1.1"/> and so this is the discourse that developed around menstruation we didn't know what it was for <pause dur="1.1"/> so we were forever finding it disorders involved in it <pause dur="0.3"/> and blaming it for things <pause dur="0.2"/> that i think probably <pause dur="0.3"/> it <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>had very little <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/>to do with <pause dur="1.2"/> and then feminists began saying well maybe menstruation is problematic <pause dur="0.3"/> because of women's problematic attitudes to menstruation which have been culturally mediated <pause dur="0.9"/> so then you have to ask you know <trunc>h</trunc> oh hang on in societies where there's segregation for menstruating women <pause dur="0.4"/> maybe they've got really bad P-M-T in them because menstruation is so unclean <pause dur="1.0"/> doesn't follow necessarily <pause dur="0.7"/> because

it also gives you a source of power <pause dur="0.2"/> and if you're working as an unpaid kitchen menial for twenty-eight for twenty-three days a month <pause dur="0.7"/> and spending five days in the company of other women because you're menstruating it may be a holiday it may be the nicest time of the month for you <pause dur="0.7"/> and you also might be damn glad to see it because you weren't necessarily going to be pregnant for the next nine months and so on <pause dur="0.7"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> we're still when if you think about the whole business of our understanding of menstruation <pause dur="0.6"/> we're still <pause dur="1.1"/> very little better off than we were thirty years ago <pause dur="0.5"/> because although we keep being told that everyone's interested in the well woman <pause dur="0.8"/> they're not interested in the well woman at all <pause dur="0.9"/> the well woman hardly exists <pause dur="0.2"/> as <pause dur="0.3"/> an idea <pause dur="1.2"/> i'm going to close now because i can see people are getting a bit weary but i want to tell you a story of what happened yesterday this is a real <gap reason="name" extent="2 words"/> story it's <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>very funny <pause dur="1.5"/> i was <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/>going to the supermarket and i always park in the

chemist's car park 'cause it's next to the supermarket i can get out faster <pause dur="0.4"/> you're not supposed to so <pause dur="0.4"/> i went into the chemist's shop to buy some shampoo <pause dur="0.6"/> but <pause dur="0.4"/> just to excuse my being in his <pause dur="0.4"/> thing <pause dur="0.7"/> and there was this huge sign in the window saying <pause dur="1.3"/> # <pause dur="0.7"/> test your risk of osteoporosis <pause dur="0.4"/> and it was literally <pause dur="0.3"/> a third of the window this big blue thing <pause dur="1.4"/> so i went in with and i got my shampoo and then <pause dur="0.8"/> i sort of took a deep breath and i said # <pause dur="0.7"/> what's this D-I-Y test for osteoporosis <pause dur="0.7"/> and the girl said <pause dur="0.3"/> and it said at the bottom it said ask at the medicine counter <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> <pause dur="0.4"/> so there i stood at the medicine counter and i asked <pause dur="0.4"/> and the girl said what <pause dur="0.2"/> osteo what <pause dur="1.0"/> <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> and i said you've got this bloody great sign in the window telling me to test my <sic corr="risk">rist</sic> for <trunc>osteo</trunc> risk for osteoporosis <pause dur="0.6"/> so she went and asked somebody else she said oh i don't know anything about it <pause dur="1.0"/> said i'll i'll just get the pharmacist <pause dur="1.8"/> out came the pharmacist and i said <pause dur="1.2"/> you've got this <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>thing in the

window <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.4"/> for a D-I-Y test <pause dur="0.2"/> for osteoporosis <pause dur="0.2"/> he said i know nothing about it i said look it's a sign in your window <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> <pause dur="0.3"/> you've got women coming in off the street to find out about this <pause dur="0.3"/> here's one of them <pause dur="1.0"/> <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> so he went outside it's just amazing <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="6"/> as if to say oh <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> <pause dur="0.6"/> went outside and looked at it and he couldn't deny that it was there because it was this big <pause dur="0.5"/> and he came back in and he said well now he said now <pause dur="0.3"/> osteoporosis is and i said # <pause dur="0.5"/> and there i'm standing in front of him <pause dur="0.3"/> six feet tall nearly <pause dur="1.2"/> <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>and # <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="1.1"/> he said # <pause dur="0.7"/> yes well this is this is a test that you do to find out if # if you're # likely to suffer from osteoporosis <pause dur="0.6"/> <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="2"/> he said if you if you see that your shoulders are getting a little humped i said well that'd be <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>a bit late <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/>wouldn't it it's the risk <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="5"/> of osteoporosis <unclear>i'm talking about</unclear> <pause dur="0.3"/> not the presence of terminal osteoporosis <pause dur="0.6"/> and it never occurred to him that i might know something about the subject he

just went straight ahead into absolute disastersville <pause dur="1.4"/> so i said well # <pause dur="1.1"/> i want to what is involved in this test <pause dur="0.2"/> # he said well i don't know i said well <pause dur="0.3"/> <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="2"/> i i was told to ask so i'm asking what is involved in the test so he went out of the room and he came back <pause dur="0.8"/> with this <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>bag <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/>which i could see had a plastic cup in it <pause dur="0.2"/> <vocal desc="laughter" n="sl" iterated="y" dur="2"/> and he sat down on a seat and he carefully read the pamphlet <pause dur="1.2"/> then he put the pamphlet back in the bag and he came out and he said to me well <pause dur="0.6"/> # what you do is you pee into this plastic cup <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" n="ss" dur="1"/>and you send it off to this laboratory and they will tell you whether there's <pause dur="0.4"/> a certain # <pause dur="0.7"/> substance in your urine <pause dur="2.0"/> so i said what a metabolite of calcium or something <pause dur="0.7"/> he said no i think he said it's a sort of protein <pause dur="0.4"/> so i said oh well they're testing bone resorption aren't they <pause dur="0.3"/> not <pause dur="0.9"/> not bone density <pause dur="1.0"/> and he said <pause dur="0.8"/> oh <pause dur="0.9"/> ah i suppose they are <pause dur="0.3"/> so i said well that means that all you find out from having this test is that you need another test <pause dur="3.2"/> <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> which i said can't you just get the other

test by asking the doctor for it <pause dur="1.2"/> the bastard was totally blank at this state <pause dur="0.9"/> <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> so then i said # <pause dur="0.3"/> # i was going to buy the test just for <trunc>in</trunc> just for information 'cause i do that just keep it <pause dur="0.3"/> you know so i can <pause dur="0.2"/> talk about it somewhere else <pause dur="0.6"/> so i said how much does it cost <pause dur="0.2"/> to have this test to find out if you need a test <pause dur="2.5"/> <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> and he said nineteen-pounds-ninety-nine <pause dur="1.7"/> <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" dur="1"/> i said <pause dur="0.5"/> there's nothing new under the sun <pause dur="0.2"/> now this is just a naked attempt to exploit women's anxiety <pause dur="0.4"/> to the best of my knowledge what they are testing <pause dur="0.5"/> as far as i could see <pause dur="0.3"/> was # <pause dur="1.0"/> one of the <pause dur="0.3"/> substances associated with osteoclasts <pause dur="0.5"/> and there could be lots of reasons i guess

why you are pissing those out <pause dur="0.5"/> and as far as i know and i'm my research is not that old <pause dur="0.5"/> there's <pause dur="0.9"/> no proof that they actually <pause dur="0.9"/> strongly related to osteoporosis at all <pause dur="0.9"/> anyhow i promised you these <pause dur="1.0"/> <kinesic desc="holds up bag" iterated="n"/><vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> now the problem is i've only got twenty <pause dur="1.0"/> because they're all been given away to # <pause dur="0.9"/> Richard Branson and <shift feature="voice" new="laugh"/>people i don't know <vocal desc="laughter" iterated="y" dur="1"/> <shift feature="voice" new="normal"/><pause dur="0.7"/> well i they're given away by the publicity people and they've got the dreariest idea of who counts </u><u who="sf1107" trans="overlap"> <gap reason="inaudible" extent="1 sec"/> on the train with one </u><pause dur="0.8"/> <u who="nf1091" trans="pause"> <vocal desc="laugh" iterated="n"/><pause dur="1.3"/> <vocal desc="laughter" n="ss" iterated="y" dur="1"/> so what i'll do is # i'll stand here and if you want one <pause dur="0.6"/> i'll give you one as you come out

</u></body>

</text></TEI.2>