Dear listeners, welcome to the Mothers in academia podcast series.
My name is Cagla and I'm a PhD student at the University of Warwick.
I'm also a mum of an eight year old boy.
Today we have Professor Pinter, who is the head of the Applied Linguistics Department at the University of Warwick,
an award-winning author of the book Engaging Children in Applied Linguistics Research, and the mother of two.
Anna Maria, welcome to our podcast series.
Thank you very much.
So in addition to your achievements as an academic, you have been supervising female PhD students over the years.
Today we'd like to talk about the challenges they face and what you have done to overcome these challenges as a supervisor,
so that this could be an inspiration to the other female PhD students with parenting responsibilities.
Okay, perfect.
So this might start like a silly question, but from your experience, do you think there is a best time to do your PhD or to have children?
Well, certainly not. There's never a best time for anything.
I guess you do your PhD when you've got the opportunity and you have children when it's right in your personal life.
So for many people these two can overlap.
And even though I had my son 25 years ago, I also had him in the middle of my PhD.
And I remember it still very well how challenging it was.
And it was at this university, but 25 years ago life was very different here.
I think things have improved and there's perhaps more support available and more flexibility.
But at the time I managed it. It wasn't easy, but I managed it and I can share some of those strategies that I used if they're useful to you.
That's wonderful. We'd love to hear that. So what works for you really?
So I guess one thing that was really difficult for me was that neither my husband nor me had any help whatsoever.
No families, no close friends that we could have left a small child with.
So as soon as my son was able to go to nursery, I remember he wasn't even able to walk yet.
He was 10 months old or 11 months old or something like that.
And we lived in Kenilworth and we managed to find the nursery place in Leamington Spa, which is quite far away.
And he was only allowed to go three mornings. So from 9 to 12, not five, three mornings.
So I started out by just having that time, you know, 9 to 12, three mornings a week.
And of course I was worried about him and I thought he was far too young to be in that nursery, but he seemed to be okay.
So I had no choice but to settle down to do my work.
And I had to, of course, drive him every day. And by the time I drove there and then drove back home and settled down, I realized I lost an hour.
So this wasn't good.
So then I found a cafe which was across from the nursery on the corner.
And I still remember today the kinds of books that I read there and the notes that I took.
And I remember that the intensity with which I could work because I knew that I only had those few hours to focus on.
Because once I picked him up and we went back home, there was no hope even when he fell asleep for me to do anything.
But I guess in many ways it taught me to focus and it taught me to use the time 110%.
And had I just gone to the library for an ordinary day, I probably would have chatted, I would have arrived late, I would have spent time in the cafe,
you know, just drinking and daydreaming and I would have probably not devoted myself fully to it.
So I still today believe that if you've got three times four hours in a week and nothing more, you can still achieve an awful lot.
And you shouldn't castigate yourself or kill yourself, you know, trying to do two more hours at midnight or something like that because it's just too much.
So I'm a great believer of using regular time but very, very intensively and efficiently.
But then that becomes a real advantage.
All of a sudden, you know, you turn the disadvantages into an advantage and that really works well.
And if you see other members of staff around the corridor, you will almost know who had the same sort of problem.
Because those are the people who are able to put their head down either for half an hour and just achieve something rather than sort of get ready and, you know, take the time.
So I do remember that that helped me a lot.
And then also, I guess, occasionally I was away to take longer breaks.
So I remember around Christmas time or Easter time when we went and visited my husband's family.
I worked in my mother-in-law's greenhouse.
So that was also great because I could have two, three, four intensive days just working on whatever I needed to do.
And they're very memorable and I do, I still today I do enjoy working in cafes or places where, you know, you're just locked in for a certain amount of time and you're on your own and no one's going to bother you and no one's going to interrupt you.
Not everybody likes it, of course. Everybody's different.
But I always like variety.
And as long as I've got a space and some time, I can just get on with it for a few hours.
Exactly. And that focus really ticks.
I know how it is. Even for a few minutes sometimes you just get to focus and do your work and you put something aside.
That's wonderful. Thank you.
What about the students you have supervised over the years, especially female students with parenting responsibilities?
Can you describe a time when you supervise a female PhD student with children?
How did her caregiving responsibilities affect her academic journey?
Was it similar to yours or different?
So I've had quite a few female students who had children. I even had students who left children behind.
So came here from another country and left children behind.
And I think that's just a suffocate. It's almost unbearable.
Again, times have changed nowadays. You can see your children and talk to your children online, even if that happens.
But back 15-20 years ago that wasn't the case. So it was extremely difficult.
And of course if your children are struggling or not happy, then you can't work. It's not possible.
So you need to just take time out and make sure that you sort out your own feelings and you deal with your children's issues and problems.
So I've also had students who came, brought children and their children didn't settle in local schools or not very well, not very quickly, not very easily.
So those parents of course needed to prioritise their children because only when their children were happy, they could then get on with their own work.
That's so true here.
So when we talk about the unique challenges the female PhD students face, can you compare them with those, their peers, without caregiving responsibilities?
Have you noticed any differences?
Well yes, of course. So those who have got other responsibilities need to be much more organised and their time is much more limited.
And they can't do certain activities like they can't join a class, for example when it's time to drop off your children or to pick them up.
Or you may have a parents' evening or something like that that is still way more important than joining the rest of your friendship group for a party or get together of some kind.
So it's a constant juggling of different responsibilities.
But I guess I have noticed that students who bring families are more organised and think about their time much more carefully.
Because it doesn't mean that they can't socialise with the other students.
And sometimes they make really good friends with other students and then also they can actually use those connections to develop special relationships
and maybe get those friends to look after the children on an informal basis.
I mean that happens as well.
So it could be a very good thing for both the children and a student who's got a good friend, colleague who can also sort of help out a little bit.
Why not?
But this could be a very gendered issue as well.
So because you have supervised male PhD students with children as well, did you notice any differences?
How their experiences differ from your other female PhD students with children?
Yeah, so as I said, it's very hard to generalise.
I can think of quite a few male PhD students who also had quite a lot to do with their children.
Because for example, at least in two cases, they did have their partners with them.
But they came from countries where their partner didn't speak any English.
So they brought over partners who were able to look after the children in the house, but not able to go to the GP, not on their own, not able even to go to the local market.
So I noticed that those male students actually had to take on quite a lot of that additional responsibility.
And I had students who had quite a few children, so I had someone who had four children, five children.
And that also makes a big difference compared to one or two.
That is true.
There's always just something to sort out or something to worry about or some additional activity to attend to.
But yeah, I guess even the male students, I think, with children, I noticed that they had to take on some of the responsibilities.
But yeah, I also had PhD students, female students whose partners didn't come.
So they stayed back, for example, in South Korea.
It's very much almost expected that fathers will have to stay in a very prestigious job.
And just because their wife might want to come and do a PhD, they're not ready to give up even kind of temporarily on that job.
And would the children come with the mum or...?
So the children came with the mum.
But I must say that some of my students were extremely well prepared for this challenge.
They were even including their children, some of them involved their children in their own research.
But also just had really good strategies to get the children settled in school and understand very, very quickly how primary school life worked and made friends with other parents and all that kind of thing.
So really, everyone's different. You can be very well prepared or it can be a big shock, I suppose, as either one or the other.
But I think it's a good idea to, you know, before students come to explore the opportunities and the facilities and maybe look for like-minded parents on campus who can give advice and help you.
Because that can really make things a lot easier.
Easier, yeah. Sharing the experiences with others who shared the same experience.
That's kind of what we're doing today.
So thinking about those female PhD students with children, what strategies or what kinds of support seem to be most effective, in your opinion?
So I have to be honest, I'm not entirely sure what is currently available, for example, on campus.
I mean, I found for myself and for quite a few students that I would have loved to take my son to the library, for example,
because he was one of those children, he would have just sat there, wouldn't have caused any trouble, he would have just done his own coloring or whatever.
But it was often not allowed, you know, so they don't like children in the library.
So I think it would be great if there were more facilities, like there could be a little something downstairs, you know, for children.
It wouldn't take much to set that up.
And I'm sure other people have had this idea and I don't know why it has not been realized.
Because I understand not everybody would want the children running around up and down all the floors,
but certainly somewhere on the library premises, it would be great to have something.
I know that it works really well to body up with somebody.
So this is not my PhD, but when I was a young academic here, I had a friend whose child was in the same class as my son.
And then we used to take turns, she would pick both of them up and cook for them.
And then I would collect my son really late and then use those days to work late and get on with my whatever I was doing at the time.
But clever idea.
Yeah, and then I took them usually on a Friday, sometimes Thursday and Friday, depending on whether I could make both days.
So she did more, but she wasn't working in a similar job as I was.
But then I also took them and sometimes I took them at the weekends to give her time to do something.
I know that's again a very personal strategy.
You need to just find a body or a like-minded parent on campus who would want to do that with you.
But also it's important that the children get on.
Exactly.
Because you can't just force your child onto anybody.
Then the mom guilt kicks in because you go there and you found out that they have been fighting forever.
It's not a nice feeling.
No, but I know this is kind of like an old person talking, but times, these are very precious times.
So I would say if a young mom doing a PhD ever feels like today I want to prioritize my child because I feel I need to,
because he's not happy or she's not happy or something's going on, just do that.
I think it's important not to push yourself too much because sometimes your child needs you and that has to be your top priority.
That's correct.
But I guess for the work, all I can say is just plan it, just find little pockets of opportunity when you can lock yourself away and get on with something very intensively.
And often you achieve more in an intensive three hour slot than you would achieve for a whole day.
That's true.
Yeah.
Especially if you have that kind of drive and concentration.
That's true.
Are there any department supports available for students who have to take care of their children as well?
So obviously we're trying really hard to accommodate people.
So for example, attending classes, we're trying to make things available in a hybrid fashion.
Also the weekly research talk is always hybrid for that reason.
So there is someone's not around.
They need to be at home with their child or they need to pick up their child early.
They can still join in.
We also try really hard to make adjustments with timetables so if someone can't come in.
So for example, if I know one of my students is not able to do a particular time of the day for supervision meeting, I mean, I'm luckily in a position when I can offer almost any other time because now I don't have these responsibilities or restrictions.
I can be very, very flexible.
But I think other people as well who are perhaps also academics and parents, they try to be as flexible as possible.
I mean, we also, I guess, if anyone asks, we can offer advice.
We know how schools work.
We're very familiar with what they expect of parents, especially if they come from different countries.
How to approach a head teacher or how things work with their local curriculum.
I mean, some of us in the department would know.
So if anybody approaches us for advice, we could also provide that.
Is that the sort of thing you were thinking or more?
Well, it could be more policy wise.
But maybe we can think of when you say more flexible timetables.
We can think about if any adjustments had to be made in deadlines or expectations from a student who have children.
So I guess, yes, I mean, asking for wanting to join, for example, a class but not being able to.
So we would record it and make it available if possible.
And, you know, the timing of supervision meetings, for example.
I can't think of anything else.
I mean, in terms of policy, I guess, since we started working on the Athena Swan, we've been obviously revisiting this quite a bit.
So I guess our policy is just to be as flexible as possible.
And if at all, you know, within our power, then make those adjustments depending on the individual, whatever they.
That's very individual.
Yeah, because it can be very individual.
So you have been in academia for a long time now.
As an established academic, have your own supervisory practices evolved over time?
Can you reflect on it?
In relation to this topic in the future.
Yes, please.
Yeah, well, this is kind of a hard question.
I guess, I think, you know, it's always important to check and to make sure that someone who's got family responsibilities, that they first of all are okay.
They're feeling okay.
They're able to get on the work, the academic work.
Because like I said before, if they're struggling with something, if their child's not coping or the child's ill or they worried about something, then that is going to be the forefront of their mind.
So I think just checking, just giving advice, especially if the person wants it.
Sometimes people obviously don't necessarily want advice.
And then, you know, just kind of being a bit more patient and only talk about the academic work when the person is ready to move to that in the supervisory meeting.
And then, you know, talk about progress, taking everything into account.
So maybe they will have to travel back home for Christmas.
Maybe there's something going on, which means that in the next month, you know, progress will be slower or progress will be perhaps concentrated on certain days and weeks.
Or maybe the student needs some particular support, maybe a letter, maybe something for the school to get the children out of school early or things like that.
So I think all that comes into the discussion because you always talk holistically to the person.
You'll never just talk about the PhD progress.
Yeah, that's true.
So you allocate some time to make sure that your student is actually OK, well-being wise.
Yeah.
And then you move on to their academic response words.
That's wonderful to hear.
Thank you.
One last, but maybe a bit more personal questions.
You have raised your children while building an academic career.
And you have seen other months starting their academic careers.
What piece of advice would you give to those who are now doing their PhDs while trying to care for their babies, toddlers or young children?
Yeah, I guess I don't think I can say anything new in addition to what I've already said.
But my top pieces of advice would be always prioritize your children.
So if in the heart of your heart, your child's not happy, then do not leave them behind and take another day too.
Just pick up your work the next day or when your child no longer has fever or no longer upset or whatever it might be.
Because I think you don't want to feel guilty and you don't want to be miserable and when you're feeling miserable and guilty, then you're not going to be able to get on with your work anyway.
So that would be my first.
Second, find intensive periods of time when you can devote yourself to work.
And work on strategies that may be best for you, whether it's going to the library or going to a cafe or going to a friend's house or you're just shutting yourself in your own bedroom, whatever it might be.
Find something that works for you.
I would also say it's important to network and talk to others and try and learn from their experience or try to share the load with others.
And whenever you work intensively, just try and enjoy it and devote yourself to it 110% because that way you will make progress and you will get to the other side.
So you don't need to compromise your academic work. You will get it done.
And of course, when you're out in the park and your child happens to fall asleep in the buggy, you might then think, oh, what am I going to do about my research question?
Because your work is always at the back of your mind.
Not a story.
When your child is playing with you, you don't want to actively thinking about it.
But as in when during the day, when you have an opportunity or doing the washing up, sometimes the best ideas come to you or a solution or a question or some kind of an insight from your reading earlier.
So I guess it's a good idea just to write all those things down and your worries and your questions and take them to your supervisor when you can.
Sounds amazing.
Thank you so much for your contribution to our mini-podcast series.
And thank you all those who tuned in and listened to us. Hope you enjoyed it.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you.