Dear listeners, welcome to the second episode of Mothers in Academia.
I'm Cagla and I'll be hosting the episode.
Welcome Professor Herman.
I'm really excited to talk to you today.Cagla
So let me introduce you first.
You're the Deputy Head of School, Director of Research and Impact
and the Director of Research for German Studies.
In addition to such fantastic administrative roles, you're a mother of two.
Three.
Oh, that's fantastic.
Even more work.
You have managed to build a big career all the while raising your children.
Today I would like to open up about the challenges you have faced along the way
and what you have done to overcome these challenges.
We believe this will be a huge inspiration to female PhD students like me,
who are also parents at the same time.
So let me begin with the first question.
Can you share a personal experience of balancing your research,
academic responsibilities with parenting?
So was there a particular moment when you felt especially challenged
or especially successful?
Well, yes.
I think I can say that the very first time when I had my first child, my daughter,
that was the most challenging time.
It was during my PhD.
I was in the second year of PhD.
And it was a completely new situation, as you can imagine.
And I just felt there was no time at all for my PhD left.
And all the focus was on the child, which was important, which was good, which was very nice.
But after more than six months, I felt there's something missing.
Something is not being right.
And I had a dream where I dreamt that I had a second child that was already two years old.
It was a boy, which was not the case.
And I dreamt that I've completely forgot about that child and I collected it.
And it was starving.
And I couldn't make any sense of this dream.
Unless, until I got a hint from someone who told me,
have you ever thought of your PhD?
Could that be the second child, two years old, that you have neglected?
And that really helped me to understand that it's, yes, there is the newborn child,
there is my daughter, and it's a very important task,
but there's also part of something else.
There's a second identity I have.
And that really helped me to adjust to the situation and also to focus again on my PhD.
Yeah, because you've explained this so well, there is a huge identity shift.
Yes.
When you have a baby, especially when you're a first-time mom,
there are so many things to take in and then you try to find yourself once again.
That's so inspirational.
So have you ever faced a situation where your role as a parent directly impacted your career or academic progress?
Well, one situation I can mention here is I was applying for a postdoc position at the university
after having finished my PhD and the director of the institute said,
oh yeah, of course you can apply for this position.
And there will also be another opening for a position assistant professor.
I'm not expecting you to apply for this position because you have a child
and you won't have the time to be in academia.
So it's better, the postdoc position is better for you because you can focus on research and you can have your child.
And I felt something feels wrong here.
So I consulted with the Equal Opportunity Commissioner, the gender onwards money was called at that time,
and explained her the situation and she asked me, would you like to take on,
would you like to apply for the other job as assistant professor?
And I said yes, of course, because I think it opens more opportunities for your career.
And then she said, well, you're right, go ahead for it.
And I applied for the position and I got it.
Wow, congratulations.
So I can say maybe the director of the institute felt like,
okay, he's doing me a favor in offering me a postdoc position
and having the opportunity to just focus on the research, but in hindsight it was the right decision.
And I felt grateful that I was accepted for the position.
That's wonderful, but that really reflects your skills at the same time.
Another position you would be stepping behind probably your skills.
It was challenging and of course it was more work to be honest.
It was more difficult to handle, but in hindsight it was worth it.
Yeah, and one thing that comes to my mind when you said it,
I was wondering if it wasn't you, but it was a male researcher in the same position who had a child.
Would the reaction be the same?
I'm pretty sure it wouldn't.
Yeah, that brings me to my next topic.
Shall we talk about traditional gender roles and expectations around them?
So have you ever experienced any differences in how male and female academics are expected
to manage their parenting responsibilities?
Yes, I think the expectation is to female academics.
Oh yeah, they need to do their job and there's also the child or the children,
but that doesn't count.
On the other hand, the male are just expected to do their job
and they're expected to be able to do their job and they're not even expected to be a parent.
So it's very difficult.
On the one hand, everyone acknowledges that as a mother you might have to handle much more,
but at the same time you're expected to do a really good job
and nobody has any, that doesn't feel pity for you or whatever,
and I would not expect this to be honest.
But I think there's a big, big difference between the expectations.
I think so. It is as if you're expected to work as if you don't have any children
or go back and take care of your children as if you don't ever work.
So do you think that's unfair?
I think it's unfair, but the question is what can we do?
I think the right answer to this is very difficult.
I don't think we can change the mindset immediately.
And what I don't want and never wanted is to ask for pity.
I'm here. This is my job. It's my decision that I wanted to have children
and I still think it was the right decision and I would support anyone who goes this way,
chooses the route, but we need to find our own way
while at the same time raise awareness for it.
Exactly.
So my next question is, do you think women in academia, are they drowning
or can they swim like fish in the environment, like in the sea?
I hope they are not drowning. I hope they can swim as a fish.
Yes, I think, but sometimes with more difficulties.
And I think to support them is very important and also mentally support them
and to have a community where they feel like accepted and they have their mental support.
This can be inside academia.
I can also be outside academia, best case scenario both ways.
So do you think there is an implicit glass ceiling for women in academia?
I think there is. I definitely think there is.
For women in general and for women with children even more so,
because they might be falling behind at some point and it's hard to catch up.
Exactly.
But it is possible to catch up.
Yeah, like building communities and sport networks.
Yes.
At least we're starting with raising awareness at this point.
Yeah.
And I'd like to move on to the next topic, which is orchestrating the life.
So what I mean here is you carry the mental load of being the default parent.
So what happens when children get sick or they have a school play or a birthday party to attend to?
So how do you juggle that? How have you done it over the years?
Yeah, orchestrating the family life.
I think it's a good way to put it.
And I wonder how it comes that we as moms always are in this situation.
Is it ourselves who put ourselves in this situation?
Or is it the societal expectation?
Is it the father's expectation or the partner's expectation?
I think it's a mixture of it.
And we need to be really careful that we don't put ourselves all the time in that situation.
But it's also, I think we cannot avoid it.
But again, raising awareness is very important and also asking for the partner to step in and think about.
If I may share this experience or just a conversation I recently had with a male colleague who has three children as well.
He was an academia as well.
His youngest child is seven.
The oldest one is 16.
And he told me it's only now that I understand the difference between the gender.
As a male parent, I've never thought of my children while I was at work.
It was not on my mind.
And I think as a mom, we would say the children are always on our mind, even if we concentrate and when we concentrate on work.
But it's not gone.
If your child has a cold and you send them to childcare and you are expecting someone to call back maybe and you have to pick up your child, it's on your mind all day.
And you're trying to focus on work.
And I think that's still different with female and male parents.
I think so.
It's mostly, you know, moms are the ones who have to take the time off work when the child gets sick.
Even if, you know, both parents work, there is a dual carrier household.
Moms are the ones whose jobs are disrupted from child illnesses or other rescheduling requirements.
If I may say this here or mention this, I do have a postdoc, I mentor, and she has a child and she is the only case I know of where the parents share 50-50.
He's a teacher and he's gone to part-time.
So he's taking care in the, she's taking care in the morning and he's taking care of the child in the afternoon.
And it really seems to work.
But that's the only case I know of.
And of course, I don't have all the insights how it works, but it's very, and very encouraging example for me.
So it can be shared.
But, you know, when we come back to these societal expectations, I think when you take the time off from childcare, let's say, that kicks in the mum guilt.
So what I mean from mum guilt is, you know, when you juggle parenting and building a successful carrier, the feeling of not doing enough, either at work or at home, it can be a lot.
So do you have any personal experiences when you felt this kind of tension, feeling guilty because you're not there all the time?
Yeah, I think this is a very important point.
Mum's guilt, it's there.
We cannot, we have to acknowledge it.
We have to live with it.
Whatever you do, you always have the feeling you don't do enough for work, for your child.
It's never enough.
And it was very, very hard to accept this for me.
And then I also felt, I started feeling okay, but other people who don't have children, they often struggle with other things.
And they often fall behind for other reasons.
And it's okay.
It's also okay for us from time to time to fall behind and we have a good reason, our children.
And the other thing I'd like to mention is, yes, there's mum's guilt, but there's also a very, very big advantage of having to balance, to strike a balance between work and your children or child.
And that is, whatever you do, you will be looking forward to the other part and the other part of your identity.
While at work, you're looking forward to come home, spend time with your children, spending time with your children.
And you're also really looking forward to return to work.
Exactly, because it's part of your identity.
Yes, and you like both of it.
Exactly.
But sometimes you might lack the emotional resources because it can be a lot to feel that pressure to do everything for your family and then having this kind of workload.
Because academic workload can be really a burden from time to time.
Can you share your experiences? Have you managed all this?
We have this expression of doing it all.
So how did you do it all?
I think a key word here is resilience, to build resilience.
From time to time, just take a break.
If it's just five minutes, reset and ask yourself, who am I?
I'm a mum.
I'm doing an academic career.
And just concentrate on yourself.
Give yourself some time, give yourself a break.
Recharge.
Find something that is important for you outside work and outside your children.
Be it sports, be it dancing, a hobby, whatever it is.
And of course we don't have the time to do that.
I was going to raise that one.
Yeah, that's true.
But building resilience is very important and I think there are ways to do it.
And also from time to time, think of what you have achieved.
You are building a career while raising a child.
And you see develop both of that.
And it's very, very rewarding.
I think so. Hopefully it will be for me as well, as a PhD student.
I'm sure it will.
That's lovely.
But you raised your children all the while building a career in academia as a single mum.
Not all the way.
But a part of it.
Yeah, part of it.
So looking back, is there a particular moment that encapsulates the challenges or rewards of being an academic with children?
Or how did that experience shape your perspective on work-life balance?
It has shaped my experience and my view on work-life balance.
As I said before, you have both of it and you're looking forward to do the other one while doing the one.
Yes, I'm thinking of a very particular moment.
My children are grown up by now.
So my life has completely changed in a good way.
And in a positive way, in that respect, I'm the owner of my time.
And that's a very new experience.
How does that feel?
It feels great.
I don't have the challenge to face.
I don't know what to do with my time.
I don't have a midlife crisis.
I just have one job by now, which is great.
I no longer have two jobs at the same time.
But very challenging moments, while I was a single mom and raising my children and having a full-time job in academia,
was the moment when I came home after work, opened the door.
The first question before anyone says hello to you is,
Oh, when we are going to have supper, the next question is, what are we going to have for supper?
That's what I was going to say.
It doesn't change a lot.
It doesn't change, no.
And you think, oh, just give me five minutes to reset, to put down my laptop or whatever it is,
and just give me five more minutes to think about what are we going for to have for supper?
So these are the moments I don't miss now that my children have grown up.
But the very rewarding part is to see your children develop as individuals, as characters, to grow, to thrive,
while you have achieved the other part as well.
And I don't think I've ever focused on my career particularly in a sense of being competitive or this is what I want to do.
I just took one step after another and it developed.
And in hindsight, that's very, very rewarding.
Oh, that's lovely to hear. Very encouraging.
Yes. And I think what's also rewarding is when I look back and have conversations with my children,
they never blame me for having built a career while raising them.
And my daughter now is in a similar situation.
She has a nine month old child and she's just gone back to work.
So that brings up a lot of memories for me in a very positive way, but I also remember the challenges again.
But that also is a sign for me. It has worked.
And you built a really good role model for them.
I hope so.
That's lovely. What piece of advice would you give to junior academics being in the same situation?
The advice would be, again, take both identities, your academic career, being a mom or being a father.
Take it seriously and give them both the right to be part of your identities.
The other thing, as I mentioned, is built resilience.
And I think everyone can learn to build resilience if needed and we all need it.
True.
And also build a network.
It can be your family, but it doesn't have to be your family.
Sometimes we live in different parts of the world and they are not available.
And also childcare is very important that you have childcare you can rely on and you feel good with.
You need someone who you trust and that you can relax while being at work or focusing on your writing your doctoral thesis or whatever it is.
That would be my advice.
That is natural.
And don't have too high expectations on your environment, on the society.
You might not get it.
Find your own way in how you structure your day.
I think that's very important.
And it's absolutely okay to spend only part of the day with your children or with your child, not all day.
It's about quality time you share with them.
That's true.
Yeah.
Such nice advice.
I know this will sound off topic before I move to the next two questions because I'd like to open up about a little bit of your experience with working with.
Female and male PhD students.
I know you've got your supervisory experience as well.
So if I may ask, have you noticed any differences in the challenges faced by male and female PhD students over the years?
What in terms of course, childcare responsibilities?
Yeah.
I have several, I've had several PhD students, female PhD students who have a child or children.
I now also have male postdocs.
I mentor who have children.
And whatever I can do to support both, I will do.
It's also, to me, it's also very important to support the male postdocs or PhD students with children so they have the time to spend with their children and to have the time to play their part in raising their children.
So that's very important to me.
When I think of my PhD students, I don't think of them as moms or dads.
I think of them as PhD students, but that also includes that they can have potentially or might be in a situation as parents, but I don't want to differentiate between them.
I have the same expectations, but whatever holds them back from thriving, from achieving their goals, I will support them for whatever reason it is.
But what I really like to avoid is to make a distinction to raise a gap between those who have parenting responsibilities and those who don't.
Quite often, people who don't have children struggle with other things.
That's a good point. It's nice to hear because sometimes you feel like you lag behind the rest of the community or the rest of the other academic people.
But my experience also, there's a time issue and we never have enough time, as we said before, but what you really develop when building an academic career while parenting and raising children is time management.
Because you have to and everyone will develop these skills.
I'm absolutely sure and that's my experience as well.
And that's the really, really big advantage and benefit of being a parent while building an academic career.
You manage time better than other, any fail.
You learn how to be efficient. You only have two hours. What do you do with these two hours?
Sit down, focus on the work that needs to be done and start now.
That's true.
So, Professor Simon, just one last question.
I know this might sound weird for such a successful academic like yourselves, but have you ever felt you're lagging behind your peers in academia?
I think that's a very important question. Yes, I did.
Very much so at the beginning of when each child was born.
And I would even say I felt like I'm falling behind one or two publications per child, which is a lot raising three children.
But there was also a time when my children were teenagers where I felt, no, I'm catching up.
Because I learned how to manage my time, to be more efficient, to make more out of my time.
And at that time, I felt many of my male colleagues have started to build families, to raise very young, small children.
And they are falling behind or there were other reasons why other colleagues were falling behind or not falling behind.
But I really had the feeling that I'm able to catch up.
And that was a really good moment.
And I would like to encourage everyone who decides to take that route within an academic career, together with children,
that you keep that in mind, yes, you are able to catch up at some point.
Oh, that sounds fantastic. Thank you very much for your contribution.
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
And I'd like to thank to our listeners as well.
Thank you very much for tuning in and listening to our mini podcast series.