Voiceover: Hello, welcome to Warwick Voices. Bringing you news, views and conversation directly from your colleagues across the University of Warwick.

Kulbir: Hello, I'm Kuklbir Shergill and I'm the Director of Social Inclusion. 

Ken: Hello, Kulbir, it's good to talk to you today. Before we get into the main part of the interview, let's just go back a bit. Could you tell us a little bit about your background? Where did you grow up? Where was home? 

Well I, I grew up in in Leicester, actually, so in the Midlands, and my parents were first generation immigrants coming from India and I went to a comprehensive school. I think my aspirations were probably very much shaped by my parents own kind of experience and understanding of what was available, which was kind of quite narrow. I mean, in a very traditional sense, what they knew about was that people became lawyers or doctors if they were successful, because they weren't kind of particularly highly educated themselves. And like a lot of first generation immigrant communities, they worked in factories. So that kind of knowledge of actually what was available on a career path was was really very, very kind of narrow.  

Ken: That's interesting. So what sort of what sort of expectations were on you, then as you were growing up? 

I think my parents had very kind of mixed expectations, because they were quite traditional. So I think that, you know, in their, in their kind of eyes success for them was a really good arranged marriage, you know, and that was their kind of idea of success. And part of education was kind of being that kind of marketable commodity, almost [laughs]. Sorry, I'm laughing, because it is kind of funny to me. So in many ways, I didn't really kind of meet any of my parents expectations, I didn't become a doctor or a lawyer, and neither did I have an arranged marriage. So it was kind of quite kind of conflicted in that way. But I think for myself, it was I don't think I really knew what I wanted to do. You know, when I was a school, you know, it was it seemed very kind of narrow to me, in terms of what I saw, in terms of the adults kind of around me, I think it was only once I kind of went to university. And for me, university was a way of kind of finding my own personal freedom. So that for me was the kind of motivator, I think, you know, that I really started to kind of understand, actually, where some of my kind of passions lay. And I actually went on to do sociology and psychology. And I think through that kind of gaining some understanding around the role of discrimination in and around politics, etc, which really starts to drive me towards the career that I that I took up, actually and have had been in since since then. 

Ken: And aside from family, can you talk about about your school background? And what sort of friendship and peer groups did you have? 

I think for quite a large part of my peer group was very similar, actually, although I had a very kind of mixed group of friends - you always have a little gang at school, don't you? So my kind of little gang was actually quite mixed. And I had kind of friends who, whose kind of origins were African Caribbean. But I also had a white friend who'd actually been living in New Zealand and then came over and actually Her father was a university professor, and I think actually, that did kind of open up a different perspective on, you know, what was kind of possible. So I think, you know, there was that kind of difference that kind of came in but a lot to a large extent, until I was kind of an older teenager. My peer group was very kind of similar. 

Ken: So you mentioned studying psychology and sociology at university. Were the subjects you'd already studied at a level or was it something you started afresh? And what was your particular interest in those areas? 

I did Psychology at A Level and it was something that I found really interesting, actually, I was I was quite kind of fascinated by it. And I think that was partly what then made me go and do degree in social sciences, and then kind of majoring in sociology and psychology. It was just something that I kind of felt myself drawn to, I suppose it's that interest in people and society and actually how it's ordered and how it functions.  

Ken: So after you after you graduated, how did your career progress after university? 

I think what what I call my first kind of real job was actually working for a local authority. So working in local government, and it was actually working in the housing kind of section of that in the kind of policy areas. So that for me, again was kind of very interesting. And it was specifically a role around race and housing. So that was all about kind of policy, how it kind of impacted accessibility to those local services, but also about racism, and how local government kind of get engaged with community. And it was, it was kind of all about the experiences that I had grown up with, and that people around me had grown up with. And it was, for me an opportunity to actually take an active part in trying to turn some of that around. So I think that was where my kind of real attraction to that piece of work was. And what happened as a result of that was that my interest in wider diversity and equality issues kind of came with it and has grown, as has my knowledge and experience. I mean, I worked ended up working for a range of organisations actually, one place that I worked for, was a very large kind of national charity, which was actually about crime. And they and they did a lot of work with young people. They did a lot of kind of work with, you know, the prison services and probation. So it was very much about actually how policy national policy kind of impacts on exclusion. And actually, what are the routes that we as a society take or to decide not to take to actually increase equality and kind of increase inclusion. I mean, I found that when I was working for that charity, it was really working with people who were at the sharpest end of exclusion in in this country. So you know, that kind of led me to kind of work in, you know, other kind of larger housing, projects and organisations, I then went on, actually to work in the corporate sector, because I was also interested to understand actually how this worked in a very different context. And the focus there was very much on, you know, talent development. And that was a real kind of contrast to some of the work that I've been doing, but nonetheless, kind of help to join up the dots in terms of where people kind of end up, and what kind of organisations they end up working for, and what opportunities are available to them. So I've worked in a range of organisations from charities, to the corporate sector, so I worked in the City of London for for quite some time, and then actually was seeing the job at Warwick. And that, again, was the kind of slight change to what I'd been doing. But in a way, for me, what was really attractive about the role at Warwick was that it actually bought together my experiences of having worked in local government, in working in the third sector, and also the corporate sector, it suddenly seemed to bring a lot of those strands and that knowledge together in terms of what Warwick was trying to do 

Ken: And what was it that attracted you to this particular role at Warwick? 

So I think the reason that I ended up kind of working for Warwick was because they were at a stage where they were actually doing some great work. But it was kind of quite disparate, and separated and was happening in different pockets of the university, you know, some stuff was happening on the academic side, and some on the kind of professional services and, and actually, I saw my role very much as kind of bringing all of that together, and actually having a kind of strategic approach to what was happening at Warwick and kind of bringing some and helping to bring together a vision of actually what did inclusion look like now at Warwick, and what did we want it to look like? And really understanding what were the steps that we needed to take to get there? And how did we leverage the work that we were doing already at Warwick? And actually, what did we need to do more of, or to kind of get inventive about to really help us to kind of achieve this kind of inclusive culture that we talk about. So I think, for me that that's the reason that I ended up at Warwick that very much kind of appealed to me. And it was a new role for Warwick as well. You know, this role hadn't existed here before. So it was a kind of great opportunity to actually bring together my experience. With the vision that Warwick had, and I think that because it was a new role, I think we've shaped it as we've kind of gone along two and a half years into this role now. And, you know, you do shape it as you develop a strategy as you learn about the organisation, and get a better understanding of actually what's going to work best for this community here at Warwick. 

Ken: So in terms of specifics, and the reason the role was created at Warwick, can you expand on that for us? 

I think there are a range of issues actually, that are facing warwick and, and the HE sector and society in general. But I think the things that we recognise at warwick that are a kind of real priority for us are around gender, actually, and they are around race, I think those are the kind of very obvious very visible things to us, you know, the kind of lack of representation. You know, in senior levels, for example, not seeing enough women not seeing enough ethnic minority people, those are kind of very obvious, and we see that in some of the kind of statistics as well, you know, we've got data that kind of shows us the lack of representation, but then it also kind of weaves itself into other issues, such as the kind of awarding gap, for example, some people call it the attainment gap for black and Asian and other minority ethnic students, for example. So that whole student kind of experience and we see that there's something about the kind of outcome, which points to the kind of culture and the experience of people, because we know it's got nothing to do with the kind of A level grades, etc, that students come into university, but rather, you know, what happens to kind of that experience, to the end result for from when they're leaving. So I think those kind of issues are, you know, a very kind of obvious, and we know that they're important and a priority. But I think once you start to kind of delve below that, you know, if you're a woman, you know, it's not just because you're a woman, that you may kind of fear, you know, face barriers and challenges to both attainment as a student or, you know, in your career, if you're an academic or on the professional services side, you know, that may be kind of where it where it intersects perhaps with your social class, or with a disability, or your sexual orientation, we realise that, you know, we're complex as people, you know, there's no one thing that really defines, you know, any of us. But I think those kind of obvious challenges around race and gender are certainly some of the things that we see as a priority, but also, by challenging, taking up the challenge, and working through the issues that it raises, it helps us to address some of the more subtle things that we don't necessarily see. 

Ken: So you've worked in a number of contexts you worked in a local authority worked in the third sector, and you worked in, in a corporate context in the city. Can you tell us what's different about what you do working in the context of higher education? 

That's a really interesting question, actually. And in my mind, in many ways, there is no difference, you know, because organisations function in a particular way. And they're all made up of people with their kind of biases, and the ways that they kind of work, you know, whether it's a university, or a kind of glossy corporate in, in, in London, but I think, you know, and they actually, they face many of the same issues in terms of their recruitment, you know, so for example, if we, you know, they want diversity, you know, in the corporate sector, because they understand that, you know, that diversity of thought is really important. You know, that's what kind of is at the basis of our innovation and our creativity, it's what kind of drives it. And we know that diversity of backgrounds is a kind of proxy of that diversity of thought. And so they kind of they value that, and I don't think that's any kind of different for a university. But I think what makes the university and the, what I think what makes it even more important for a university, to have that diversity and to have that inclusion is that we are almost at the start of a journey. You know, we are the place where people come and they start their careers. It's kind of what they learn what their kind of passions they find and what they're driven to do, you know, after they've kind of left university or whether they stay on as kind of academics. So to have that diversity of thought in the first place, because we are a place of kind of innovation and creativity, but it's also making sure that we have that diversity in people because they see that that is the talent that will actually kind of then go out into society. It will be the talent that will be employed by the corporates by government, and by the third sector. So we want to kind of make sure that the people that come through warwick universities, represents kind of the society that we live in, you know that they do have a good perspective of actually what's it like to be in somebody else's shoes? And what does that mean to the career path that I've actually chosen? And the work that I kind of do? 

Ken: And this might sound like an obvious question, but can you can you expand, to explain why specifically, it's important for the university to have diversity of people, diversity of thought? 

Diversity of thought is important, because we're a place of innovation and creativity, you know, we're a research intensive University, we need that kind of talent, we need it in our, in our staff, and we need it in our students. And it's important for us to have a reputation and also the practice of being, you know, an inclusive culture, you know, in a culture, which really helps people to kind of reach their potential. And we know that it's important, but from some of the research that we've done, we know, for example, that for some of our students, actually, the diversity of the students, and the diversity of the make up of staff here is important. It's one of the things that they think about, before they decide I want to go to warwick. I think, also for our staff, you know, many people will kind of look at an organisation and say, Is this a place where I'm going to thrive? Is this a place where I'm going to feel welcomed? Is this a place where I have a future? Am I going to be able to progress my career in the way that I want to? So I think in that way, then our kind of brand and our reputation is important. But I think what's critical is that, you know, we have, we actually have the right practice. And in reality, that is what people's experience is, because I think, if you just have a brand, you know, we don't mean, if we can't back it up, then people see through that very clearly. So we have to be very authentic in that. 

Ken: Is there anything you can share about information, you've seen about how the quality of research is affected, if there's a diverse approach?

I have actually come across some pieces, which really do point to the, the more different kind of thinking that you've got going on, the more kind of challenge and the more ideas we have, that really do kind of contribute to better research. And I think one of the other kind of parallels to that actually is, you know, that a lot of kind of new startups and innovation, they say are about different thinking actually coming together. So you know, it's not just about one discipline, for example, but it may be many disciplines actually coming together to find a completely different solution to a problem. And I think actually there is, there is now very much a kind of academic way of working and and and I believe that's something that we are starting to do in in warwick is actually bringing different disciplines together to find new solutions to old problems. 

Ken: So can you talk about some of the practical things that are happening now, Kulbir, it can either be some of the things you're coordinating things that you described earlier was already happening before you arrived at warwick or new initiatives? 

we've been doing some really kind of exciting work, actually, with the leadership teams here at warwick. And to me, that is a very kind of critical piece of our strategy in creating that inclusive culture. Because, you know, we know that we look to leaders in any organisations to kind of really set the tone around, you know, what's, what's kind of acceptable, and what isn't, and also for leaders to be actually be able to not just to kind of think about what their personal behaviours are. But actually, how do they kind of embed that into the department, you know, the departmental strategies, for example. So, you know, we really start to kind of see that change kind of filtering down, but how they engage with their own teams, how they think about kind of developing future talent here at warwick. So I think for me, that's been a really exciting piece because, you know, no one little team is ever going to achieve this. This is a kind of community change or just kind of cultural change that all that all of us kind of need to take forward. So I think that's one of the pieces of work that's been really interesting and fantastic to have kind of got off the ground. I think one of the pieces that I'm really interested in about now, which we're about to kind of which we just launched, which is our Inspire Programme. And this programme is, you know, I say people to, to, to kind of come on this programme to be inspired, and to inspire others, because this is about our future leaders who don't see themselves currently represented in those very kind of senior positions, you know, at warwick. So, you know, what we want to do through this is really kind of diversify that kind of develop our own kind of talent pool. Because saying, you know, 'we can't recruit people', or 'there aren't enough people, you know, who are women or have a disability', you know, it's up to us to kind of do something very practical to make sure that we do have that talent pool. So the Inspire Programme is something that I'm really excited about. And, you know, it's one of the things that our senior leaders have also got very engaged with, you know, they will be taking the role as sponsors, to the people who are taking part in this. 

Ken: And do you have any other examples? 

I mean, there were a lot of things that we we're kind of we're working on at Warwick at the moment, but I think one of the really exciting pieces is being involved in the STEM project, I think here is an opportunity for us to start to think about diversity and inclusion, right at the beginning of a build project. And some people might think, Well, you know, what's that got to kind of do with inclusion and diversity, but I think, actually, our physical spaces are just as important as our kind of behaviours and cultures, because our physical spaces dictate, you know, who the buildings are attractive to and accessible to, but it's also about how we kind of create spaces, and how those spaces feel in terms of who actually congregates together who gets to kind of interact with who, and actually through that kind of interaction, and through the diversity of that interaction, that we really kind of say that buildings can also help us to be innovative, and inclusive. 

Ken: If people want to get more involved or find out more, what's your advice to them. 

So I think, you know, people quite often say, you know, I'd like to get involved, I'm not really sure you know, what it is that I can do, or I or you know, I don't really see how this is kind of relevant to me, you know, I'm not a woman or, you know, I don't have a disability. So I don't really see, you know, how I can kind of engage in this, you know, in this kind of agenda, and for me, actually, one of the most powerful things about working in this agenda is that actually, this is about all of us. You know, it really is, you know, I think, you know, once we start to kind of delve into this, we realise that if it's not not about me personally, it's about the person I work with, it's about my family. You know, it's about my friends. So, you know, I think, you know, it's about giving ourselves that kind of time for kind of self reflection, because a lot of this is about self education as well, you know, and I think we can all kind of be take a responsibility for doing that, which is actually understanding, you know, what is it that we talk about when we talk about diversity? Why does that matter to me? Why does it matter to me in my kind of everyday kind of interactions, why does it matter, you know, in what I deliver, in my work, or here at Warwick, you know, and I think, you know, it's going to be individual to each of us. So I think, you know, it is a journey that we have to take kind of, you know, through our own kind of self exploration, and education to understand how we embed it within the work that we do, and actually, in our interactions with other people. 

Ken: And I know, sometimes people can feel awkward about getting involved or finding out more that or they just feel that, again, get involved in this area there's concerns about 'getting it wrong', what what would, what would your thoughts about that be? 

I think, this kind of issue around, you know, how we kind of get involved, you know, and people feeling a kind of reluctance, because they don't want to get things wrong. And I can completely understand that, but I think it's only by starting to engage and getting involved, that we understand where we are on that kind of journey. If, like, how much do we know or what we don't know and what we need to know more of, and actually, if we do want this to be an inclusive culture, then it's up to all of us to kind of input to those because actually, we you know, we are the culture. 

Ken: So I don't want this question to sound too trite it is what what does success look like but perhaps the better question is that what what does inclusion look like? 

It's, it's a good question, because it is a question that people ask a lot, you know, so what does inclusion look like? You know, how do we know we can be there. You know, I think that is about, you know, how do people kind of feel, you know, how do you know that you're part of something? And, you know, there's been lots of research done on, you know, on this very kind of subject. And there are two key things that people talk about. One is this kind of sense of being accepted for who you are, you know, I don't have to be to pretend to be something I'm not, you know, I can be comfortable in my own skin. And the second piece is about feeling that you're part of something. So there's that kind of balance between individuality and community.