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Classics and Ancient History

Democracy and Imperialism Discussion Forum 2013-4

Democracy and Imperialism Discussion Forum 2013-4 Questions and Goals for the Democracy and Imperialism Course

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  1. Michael Scott Staff Executive Office
    #1 09:33, Thu 3 Oct 2013
    This topic is for every student to post at least *1 key question and/or goal that they want to find the answer to/achieve* during the course of this module.
     
  2. A guest user
    #2 15:43, Thu 3 Oct 2013
    Was the behaviour of Athens in the 5th century BC comparable to the foreign policy of America today (by imposing democracy on communities who did not want it)?
     
  3. Theodore Parker
    #3 17:57, Thu 3 Oct 2013
    In this post <> Bradley Waters wrote: > Was the behaviour of Athens in the 5th century BC comparable to the > foreign policy of America today (by imposing democracy on communities who > did not want it)? > > Is this maybe an over-simplification of Athenian foreign policy (although that would not necessarily reduce the parallels with Amercia)? Where does democracy begin? At what point can we call a government "democratic"?
     
  4. Gah-Kai Leung Staff Politics
    #4 18:48, Thu 3 Oct 2013
    In this post <> Theodore Parker wrote: > In this post <> Bradley Waters wrote: > > >> Was the behaviour of Athens in the 5th century BC comparable to the >> foreign policy of America today (by imposing democracy on communities who >> did not want it)? >> >> > Is this maybe an over-simplification of Athenian foreign policy (although > that would not necessarily reduce the parallels with Amercia)? > Where does democracy begin? At what point can we call a government > "democratic"? > > I would nuance Bradley's question by asking to what extent public involvement in C21 US foreign policy is comparable to public involvement in Ancient Greek foreign policy. Theodore's question is a huge one and lots of political theorists have tried to grapple with this through the centuries. There are various democracy indices (such as that provided by the Economist Intelligence Unit; seehttp://www.economist.com/node/12499352 ) that have also attempted to provide an appropriate metric of democracy, but we would need to look at their methodologies and discuss whether they contain hidden assumptions or biases. This suggests a question: to what extent can we compare contemporary understandings of democracy (as given by thinktanks or political philosophers) with ancient Greek understandings? A further question: there is an alleged paradox in democratic theory, which runs like this. Suppose I vote for A in an election, expecting A to be the winner. Instead, B is elected the majority winner. There is a contradiction here: A ought to be elected (because I think so); B ought to be elected (because the majority thinks so). Did the Greeks see this as a problem? How, if at all, did they try to resolve it?
     
  5. A guest user
    #5 19:16, Thu 3 Oct 2013
    In this post <> Matthew Leung wrote: > In this post <> Theodore Parker wrote: > > >> In this post <> Bradley Waters wrote: >> >> >>> Was the behaviour of Athens in the 5th century BC comparable to the >>> foreign policy of America today (by imposing democracy on communities who >>> did not want it)? >>> >>> >> Is this maybe an over-simplification of Athenian foreign policy >> (although that would not necessarily reduce the parallels with Amercia)? >> Where does democracy begin? At what point can we call a government >> "democratic"? >> >> > *I would nuance Bradley's question by asking to what extent public > involvement in C21 US foreign policy is comparable to public involvement in > Ancient Greek foreign policy.* > > Theodore's question is a huge one and lots of political theorists have > tried to grapple with this through the centuries. There are various > democracy indices (such as that provided by the Economist Intelligence Unit; > seehttp://www.economist.com/node/12499352 > ) that have also attempted to > provide an appropriate metric of democracy, but we would need to look at > their methodologies and discuss whether they contain hidden assumptions or > biases. This suggests a question: to what extent can we compare contemporary > understandings of democracy (as given by thinktanks or political > philosophers) with ancient Greek understandings? > > A further question: there is an alleged paradox in democratic theory, > which runs like this. Suppose I vote for A in an election, expecting A to be > the winner. Instead, B is elected the majority winner. There is a > contradiction here: A ought to be elected (because I think so); B ought to > be elected (because the majority thinks so). Did the Greeks see this as a > problem? How, if at all, did they try to resolve it? > > This is the point. At times, it does appear that the Athenian demos have unprecedented powers in being able to settle foreign affairs. Such is the case when the Athenian assembly voted to massacre the Mytilines in 428-7 BC, to a man, only to reverse the decision in the following days. Of course, America is more of a representative democracy and the voter cannot decide on such matters directly but only through the medium of those elected – who may or may not honour their electorial promises. Having said that the reformations Cleisthenes initiated heavily favour his family, the Alcmaeonid clan. The citty trittys was their seat of power and allowed the limited Pnyx (which could only fit 9000 in the 5th century BC) to fill up before a proper demographic make-up could occur by bringing in the citizens from the other regions of Attica. This is possibly why Perikles, an Alcmaeonid himself, was able to dictate foreign policy at the beginning of the Pelopponessian War seemingly unopposed. It was a far from perfect system. But with regards to imposing democracies on other poleis, Thucydides has recorded the practice innumerable times. Pseudo-Xenophon (3.10) offers his opinion on why the Athenians conduct their affairs in this manner . “Also in the following point the Athenians seem to me to act ill-advisedly: in cities embroiled in civil strife they take the side of the lower class. This they do deliberately; for if they preferred the upper class, they would prefer those who are contrary-minded to themselves. In no city is the superior element well disposed to the populace, but in each city it is the worst part which is well disposed to the populace. For like is well disposed to like. Accordingly the Athenians prefer those sympathetic to themselves.”
     
  6. Sean Gallagher
    #6 21:09, Thu 3 Oct 2013
    I have no specific question as yet, but my goal is to become confident in understanding and discussing democracy and imperialism in Athens/Greece in the Classical period. Sean
     
  7. Eliot Pallot
    #7 23:23, Thu 3 Oct 2013
    To what extend did Athenians and more generally Greeks who had democratic sympathies believe that democracy was a universal and inherent good vs. something that they and other Greeks were exclusively in a position to exploit because of their position as superior to barbarians.
     
  8. A guest user
    #8 07:41, Fri 4 Oct 2013
    In this post <> Eliot Pallot wrote: > To what extend did Athenians and more generally Greeks who had democratic > sympathies believe that democracy was a universal and inherent good vs. > something that they and other Greeks were exclusively in a position to > exploit because of their position as superior to barbarians. > > Great question Eliot. The problem I think here is that the majority of the literary texts from the ancient world are written by philosophers or aristocrats, both of which take a rather dim view of the political system. Plato likens it to mob rule and Thucydides' interpretation isn't that much better either. It's hard to know what the common man, or someone like Cleon, would have made of their democracy.
     
  9. Jo Lewis
    #9 13:10, Sat 5 Oct 2013
    So far I think my aim in this course is to establish in my mind, to what extent the democracy we observe in Athens was unique, and if so, how did it become to be such a global foundation for later democracies to build upon. What made it so much better or more advanced than the others?
     
  10. A guest user
    #10 13:43, Sat 5 Oct 2013
    I think my question would be: To what extent was Athenian democracy actually democratic by a modern definition, and can a society ever be truly democratic?
     
  11. Maciej Jaszczynski
    #11 13:11, Sun 6 Oct 2013
    My question is: Did democracy do more harm or more good to the Athenian polis in the V century?
     
  12. Jack Ingleby
    #12 15:56, Sun 6 Oct 2013
    I would like to understand whether the democratic structures, however democratic by modern standards they may have been, were used democratically or were they manipulated and used principally as a tool for the elite to exploit the demos but in doing so make them complicit in their own servitude?
     
  13. A guest user
    #13 16:05, Sun 6 Oct 2013
    The representatives within the council were all male citizens of Attica who were united by a similar lifestyle and outlook on life. They were also united by their elite status above women, slaves, and foreigners not entitled to Athenian citizenship. Therefore, to what extent did political factions exist within Athenian democracy when there was not as much diversity as there is today in modern democracy? The practice of ostracism implies that there must have been some conflict, but how similar were these oppositions to modern political parties and factions?
     
  14. Poppy Richards
    #14 17:25, Sun 6 Oct 2013
    My goal is simply to find out how democracy emerged as, today, the most widely accepted structure of government in a political body. Why did democracy flourish when other options fell aside?
     
  15. Thomas Jackson
    #15 21:39, Sun 6 Oct 2013
    My question is who would have been the most likely, based on existing conditions, to be the "originators" of democracy if Athens had not been?
     
  16. Joseph Thompson
    #16 10:32, Mon 7 Oct 2013
    I would like to find out whether external factors pushed democracy upon Athens, or whether it was a solely internal decision.
     
  17. William Carruthers-Andrews
    #17 10:36, Mon 7 Oct 2013
    Why are Democracy and Imperialism so closeley associated with one another? Is there something about democratic rule which necessitates imperialsit behaviour, or is it a by-product of an effective system of government achieving power and expansionist behaviour being expected of a powerful state.
     
  18. Freya Townley
    #18 11:26, Mon 7 Oct 2013
    My aim this year is to learn more about what sort of an impact Athenian democracy had on the day-to-day life of those living within Athens (citizen or otherwise) and what sort of impact this, and the "Empire", had on a changing Athenian cultural identity within this time period and for later generations.
     
  19. A guest user
    #19 15:55, Mon 7 Oct 2013
    I think my question will be something like: Do modern scholars interpret evidence on the subject of Democracy in Athens to fit with an idea that every aspect of Athenian society was somehow democractic in form?
     
  20. A guest user
    #20 16:15, Mon 7 Oct 2013
    My question for this year would be to what extent can we ever really understand how the evolving democracy of Athens truly impacted the day-to-day lives of the ordinary people, if at all? If indeed any insight can be gained, how accurate is this likely to be?
     
  21. A guest user
    #21 18:00, Mon 7 Oct 2013
    My question will be to what extent does our modern take on democracy mean we can never truely understand democracy within Athenian society? Particulary with modern and ancient words associated to different meanings i.e. different concepts of tyranny and democracy
     
  22. A guest user
    #22 21:05, Mon 7 Oct 2013
    Was Democracy the prime reason for Athens success at Marathon, the Persian Wars as a whole and the subsequent empire they gained as a result (as Herodotus suggests) or is this idea the result of an abundance of Athenian sources seeking to praise Democracy? Therefore would the outcome have been the same under any other form of government?
     
  23. A guest user
    #23 21:50, Mon 7 Oct 2013
    I don't have any questions as yet, but going to keep reading peoples comments until I come up with something that I would like to ask. Beetle
     
  24. A guest user
    #24 13:08, Tue 8 Oct 2013
    I would be interested to learn, if possible, how the less well off parts of Athenian society (eg poor urban Athenians, rural Atticans, slaves) reacted to and interacted with democracy.
     
  25. Tara Sakhuja
    #25 01:02, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    Since democracy is largely associated with Athens, did Athenian citizenship mark the first step towards Democracy?
     
  26. Julia Wessels
    #26 15:07, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    I’d like to explore how truly efficient and beneficial Athenian Democracy was to the different members of society, and to what extent it was the forerunner of modern day democracies.
     
  27. Imogen Overy
    #27 16:24, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    My questions are: was democracy as much a cultural identity for Athenians as it was a political system? Also, in what ways and to what extent can the coming of democracy be seen as improving the lives of Athenians?
     
  28. A guest user
    #28 16:50, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    My goal for the year is to explore why Athenian democracy worked as well, and for as long as it did and as an extension how other countries across the world formed their own political system based on the ancient Athenian model.
     
  29. William Bone
    #29 19:33, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    To what extent did the involvement of Cleomones in Athenian politics affect the speed at which democracy was embraed by the Athenian Demos?
     
  30. Louis Jonesco
    #30 19:36, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    I'd like to look into whether democracy always comes hand in hand with aggressive foreign policy.
     
  31. Alexandra Boardman
    #31 20:01, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    Was there anyone severely opposed to the concept of 'Democracy'? Surely the large Aristocratic families who were used to influence and power were not happy about this shift to a more 'democratic' system? How could they act against it?
     
  32. A guest user
    #32 20:28, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    My goal for this course is to gain a deeper understanding of how different Athenian democracy was from our own, as well as how differently this made people behave. Were they more nationalistic as a result of thinking they were the only state with such a governmental system? Did they view other similar systems as inferior? Furthermore, many people on this forum have already mentioned how democracy might affect foreign policy, but I would like to know how much can be attributed to the political system, and how much can be attributed to the social, militaristic and cultural aspects of the time.
     
  33. A guest user
    #33 20:30, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    My goal is to discover to what extent Athenian democracy affected Athenian society as a whole. Did it affect only the male citizens whose voices were heard or were women's opinions changed? Did women welcome the idea of democracy or was it unimportant to them? Do you think they would have/wanted /to participate in the democratic system, or would they be happy to take the back seat?
     
  34. A guest user
    #34 21:05, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    As I looked at 5th century Athens for an EPQ, my goal is to round off my knowledge moreso on this period, as well as familiarise myself with the differences and similarities between earlier and later periods of Athenian History.
     
  35. Rebecca Owen
    #35 21:20, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    My aim is to gain a better understanding of Athenian democracy and why it survived successfully in Athens. I would also like to find out how and why it evolved into the system of democracy that we see today.
     
  36. John Edwards
    #36 21:23, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    My goal is to gain a well rounded knowledge of Athenian democracy and understand how democracy evolved into what it is today in Britain.
     
  37. Jonathan Maddison
    #37 23:30, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    I would like to find out whether Athens truley believed in democracy, or whether they used it as a tool with which to enforce their imperialistic aims.
     
  38. Matthew Ellams
    #38 23:34, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    My question would be, to what extent did the lower classes in Athenian society use the power granted to them under the system of democracy to drag favours out of the richer elite? It is clear that in some ways the rich were expected to do their share for the city, for example paying for choruses, but how much of this was down to their own benevolence and willingness to make sacrifices for the community, and how much was down to political, legal and social pressure is a much less clear (at least for me) matter.
     
  39. Thomas Calf
    #39 03:23, Thu 10 Oct 2013
    My question would be whether the rivalry of Athens and Sparta was more an ideological clash or a geo-political one and to what extent were they bound to clash with each other?
     
  40. Benedict Glass
    #40 09:44, Thu 10 Oct 2013
    How much did civic obligation inhibit or limit individual liberty of citizens in Athenian democratic society? Did the interaction of the courts and the Assembly enable reconciliation of these potentially opposing values?
     
  41. A guest user
    #41 10:01, Thu 10 Oct 2013
    My question for the year is: to what extent was Athenian democracy characterised by ritualisation?
     
  42. Thomas Kane
    #42 10:17, Thu 10 Oct 2013
    I would like to explore in greater detail the role of the tribes in democracy, in terms of their use in breaking allegiance to the old aristocratic families and subsequent issues.
     
  43. A guest user
    #43 11:20, Thu 10 Oct 2013
    To what extent can we view our modern democracies as coming directly from ancient Greece. Have there been so many changes and evolutions over the centuries that it makes modern and ancient democracy incomparible?
     
  44. Oliver Norris
    #44 12:22, Thu 10 Oct 2013
    I would like to explore whether democracy originated more from the bottom of society or it occured due to concessions from the aristocracy in a sort of 'social awakening'.
     
  45. Kieran O'Brien
    #45 12:24, Thu 10 Oct 2013
    I would like to know how Democracy impacted culturally upon Athens. More specifically in relation to Greek Tragedy.
     
  46. Charlie Sammonds
    #46 12:33, Thu 10 Oct 2013
    My question is 'Does democracy inspire imperialism and did the concept of spreading democracy influence imperialism, in a similar way to today's forceful democracies?
     
  47. Louise Forsyth
    #47 12:51, Thu 10 Oct 2013
    How much was Athenian democracy developed from its conception? How long did it take for it to become the democracy we think of as "athenian democracy" today?
     
  48. Christian Stoddart
    #48 11:40, Fri 11 Oct 2013
    Just updating the thread with my question from the lecture - to what extent was the Athenian empire made possible by the natural resources of Attica? How important were the silver mines to Athenian power? Would another city state have formed a similar empire or democracy if it had the same natural bonuses?
     

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