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Democracy and Imperialism Discussion Forum 2013-4

Democracy and Imperialism Discussion Forum 2013-4 Discussion of Term 1 Lecture 1 Key Questions

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  1. Michael Scott Staff Executive Office
    #1 11:34, Fri 16 Aug 2013 (edited 18:10, Thu 3 Oct 2013)
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    This topic is to be used for discussion of the *key questions* set out at the *end of each lecture*. Remember to *quote the Key Question (and lecture it refers to)* when posting your thoughts and ideas. *UPDATE:* This topic will be used for *KEY QUESTIONS FROM LECTURE 1 ONLY* - there will be new topics for next lectures. *KEY QUESTIONS: * *1. What are the key elements to look for when trying to pinpoint the emergence of democracy in the ancient Greek world?* *2. To what extent was Athens any different in the 7th century from other Greek poleis?* *3. To what extent do you think democracy was the likely outcome of the changing nature of Greek society at this time?*
     
  2. Theodore Parker
    #2 18:05, Thu 3 Oct 2013
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    Michael, isn't this thread going to get rather chaotic by lecture 20? Mightn't a seperate thread per lecture be a good idea? (Assuming every one of the 50 students engages with every key question each lecture at some point and talks to other students, it would still be a very busy thread and would allow the ideas to keep being discussed/after/ the next lecture had happened). Lecture #1: What are the key elements to look for when trying to pinpoint the emergence of democracy in the ancient Greek world? The power shift towards a wider portion of society has to be the most obvious tipping factor - whether that's growth in economic power, their military role as hoplites (often linked to the possession of sufficient funds by more people in any case) or the actions/leadership of an aristocrat giving the demos the feeling they have a voice. Once people begin to feel like they have some strength of their own, they start to want to exercise it, and to demand rights to reflect it. It also becomes much harder to take this power away from them, because even if you succeed they remember and resent it (the example of regular Helot revolts in Sparta is a good example of how difficult it is to truly subjugate a group, no matter how hard you try.
     
  3. A guest user
    #3 18:37, Thu 3 Oct 2013
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    In this post <> Theodore Parker wrote: > Michael, isn't this thread going to get rather chaotic by lecture 20? > Mightn't a seperate thread per lecture be a good idea? (Assuming every one > of the 50 students engages with every key question each lecture at some > point and talks to other students, it would still be a very busy thread and > would allow the ideas to keep being discussed/after/ the next lecture had > happened). > > > > Lecture #1: What are the key elements to look for when trying to > pinpoint the emergence of democracy in the ancient Greek world? > The power shift towards a wider portion of society has to be the most > obvious tipping factor - whether that's growth in economic power, their > military role as hoplites (often linked to the possession of sufficient > funds by more people in any case) or the actions/leadership of an aristocrat > giving the demos the feeling they have a voice. Once people begin to feel > like they have some strength of their own, they start to want to exercise > it, and to demand rights to reflect it. It also becomes much harder to take > this power away from them, because even if you succeed they remember and > resent it (the example of regular Helot revolts in Sparta is a good example > of how difficult it is to truly subjugate a group, no matter how hard you > try. > > Is democracy even the right word? There is an unfortunate philological connection with the Greek word demokratia, which has been carried forward into the english. The underlying principles of our liberal democracy, which were essentially based on a human rights conception endorsed by John Locke, Mill (et al.), are entirely different. So it's not suprising if we are struggling to find the birth of 'democracy' in Greece if we proceed to define the system on our own posthumous experiences, and then retroject them back onto the ancient world. Interestingly enough Herodotus in his Persian Debate (3.80) might add something here. "The rule of the people has the fairest name of all, equality (isonomia), and does none of the things that a monarch does. The lot determines offices, power is held accountable, and deliberation is conducted in public." What then is the practical difference between an isonomia i.e. a state based on equality before the law, and a demokratia? When does an isonomia become a demokratia? Considering the majority of opinion in the lecture seemed to support the view that a fair trial etc. were necessary prequisites to demokratia i.e. In contrast to Thersites in the Iliad, who was allowed no public voice.
     
  4. Sean Gallagher
    #4 21:49, Thu 3 Oct 2013
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    1. I would say that an increase in trade and trade routes and the development of hoplite infantry are key elements. Trade can allow for the increase of personal wealth without the need for aristocratic land holdings. The development of hoplites and the more general move towards this style of warfare makes aristocratic cavalry less necessary. So in terms of wealth and defence the aristocracy are made more obsolete by these two trends. 2. I don’t yet know enough to be confident in saying much, Draco’s appointment c.7th century seem a uniquely strong reaction against eupatrid arbitration. 3. I’m still thinking about it :)
     
  5. Jo Lewis
    #5 13:24, Sat 5 Oct 2013
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    1. I think one of the key elements when trying to pinpoint the emergence of a democractic polis is undoubtedly population. It is one of the main factors that all the cities we looked at during the lecture, (Athens, Cyrene and its establishment of Lybia) had in common. The growth of the population led to a greater need for control, as it is arguably much easier to control a small group of people than a mass population. Therefore a new way of governing was needed, one that could ensure that at least most, if not all citizens, were properly cared for. The shift towards representation of the people was a logical way to attempt to make sure that at least the majority of the population was accomodated for. This could be seen as the first steps towards democracy in many cities through out Ancient Greece.
     
  6. Maciej Jaszczynski
    #6 13:51, Sun 6 Oct 2013
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    1. As we have seen in the inscriptions read in class, local communities of poleis started to be considered as political bodies and tribal bonds started to be overcome by political (meaning referring to a polis) ones. That's an important moment as politics (matters of the polis) ceased to be private matters of a basileus but began to consern the whole community. 2. I do not have enough evidence, but I suppose it was not very different. Aristocratic family had all the power and no-one even thought of isonomia, let alone demokratia. 3. The fact that democracy in the Athenian version has not been ever repeated in history suggests that it was not a very probable outcome. Moreover, in a strictly Greek context, there was a big number of people who considered democracy an inherently bad system. There were many other Greek cities who had similar conditions for developping democracy, but they did not do it.
     
  7. Jack Ingleby
    #7 15:52, Sun 6 Oct 2013
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    1. The emergence of trade as a source of wealth. No longer tied to land as a principal source of income, trade enabled a new nouveau riche to emerge that wanted their opinions to be taken into consideration. Trade broke the stranglehold on power the aristocratic families had long held since the before the times of the Homeric heroes. 2. Athens, even through the 7th century, wasn't particularly special in its institutions or political organisation. It was still largely dominated by an entrenched oligarchy of aristocratic families and was prone to tyrany which is little different to other poleis of the time. 3. It wasn't inevitable, as the aristocratic families could have integrated the nouveau riche merchants into their ranks. Their unwillingness to do so meant that these influential, yet politically marginalised, citizens sought ways of empowering themselves.
     
  8. A guest user
    #8 17:35, Mon 7 Oct 2013
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    1. As said before, personal wealth is definitely a huge factor, becuase you suddenly did not need to be part of the aristocracy (link to tyrannical families) in order to be influential. Links to other poleis, or course, both in terms of trade and politics. Robin Lane Fox discusses the idea of people being "slaves" under tyrants, and them being subjected to their whims, personal interests and favouritism, in "... Homer to Hadrian". Reading through this, I would say that a subversion of that is very important, such as any system that may attempt to distribute justice more equally and so on, but that is fairly obvious.
     
  9. A guest user
    #9 17:47, Mon 7 Oct 2013
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    oops, forgot the other two questions! 2. not yet confident enough in my knowledge of the other major poleis in order to answer this with any certainty. 3. I don't think Democracy was the inevitable outcome of the changing society, but rather many other things. For example, the Persian Wars were probably influential, as we see the pressure from the part of the world building on Athens at the time democracy was taking it's first steps. I think Athenian Democracy is a unique outcome, not just a product of a changing society but a unique combination of that and many other factors all at once. People wanted a change from the tyrannical rule just as the Persian ambition was making it's way toward Greece and the Ionian revolt was taking place. and I do believe that, had the first few decades of democratic rule gone differently, it would not have lasted. Had Greece been defeated in the Persian Wars, who knows what would have happened to the system.
     
  10. A guest user
    #10 14:57, Tue 8 Oct 2013
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    1. It would seem that the most important element in the emergence of democracy is, unsurprisingly, a shift in a society's structure so that power lies less with an aristocracy and more with the general population, as witnessed in the adoption of hoplite warfare across the Greek world, forcing poleis to rely more on the middle classes. Similiarly the growth of trade in the 7th century BC would have granted more money (and therefore power) to individuals who may have been subjected beforehand. 2. From my (admittedly limited) knowledge it would seem that Athens was not radically diferent from other poleis in the 7th century , with primitive democratic behaviour observable elsewhere in the Greek world (eg Dreros, Cyrene) while Athens was still controlled by tyrants and warring factions. 3. Democracy is often seen as a historical inevitability but it must be remembered that prior to 508 BC it was untested and unheard as a concept. While there were factors in Greek society that enouraged a more democratic state, the creation of this radical political idea was far from a sure thing.
     
  11. A guest user
    #11 22:47, Tue 8 Oct 2013
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    * The most significant reason for the emergence of democracy seems to be the change in social structure in which the class system no longer revolved around aristocracy ruling the powerless lower class. The disruption of aristocratic supremacy led to the emergence of democracy. * Although Athens showed early signs of democracy it was still fundamentally controlled by single rulers as opposed to a body representative of Athens. This system was similar to other Poleis at the time which were typically ruler by Kings and Tyrants. * The emergence of democracy was not inevitable. Athens had never known anything other than being ruled by a single ruler therefore democracy was a new and possibly risky concept. Other Polies had issues with Tyrants/Kings, political instability and strife but did not establish democracy therefore it was not totally inevitable.
     
  12. Poppy Richards
    #12 14:10, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    /1. What are the key elements to look for when trying to pinpoint the emergence of democracy in the ancient Greek world?/ The formation of the polis is a very key element in democracy, leading to the form of politics that eventually emerged. Also, the end of kingship is a very important sign that a more dispersed mode of government was possible. However, pinpointing the time of the emergence of democracy may not be possible, as it was a very gradual process that kept on changing. /2. To what extent was Athens any different in the 7th century from other Greek poleis?/ There was simmering change all over Greece as the poleis were becoming more individually powerful than ever, especially Athens; Athenian drama was being used as a mechanism for democracy to thrive. /3. To what extent do you think democracy was the likely outcome of the changing nature of Greek society at this time?/ Democracy was definitely a likelihood at this time, given the increasing acceptance of self-made power (not by inherited titles and land) and of leaders working alongside civilians. However, war could have been another outcome, with more conservative aristocrats clamping down on rising figures of power that were external to their cliques. In the Iliad there is an implication that intimidation from the people, and fear of completely ignoring them, influenced the so-called 'good' leaders in Greek society.
     
  13. William Bone
    #13 19:45, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    1. The inscriptions seem to point to an emergence of the power of the polis as a whole rather than a tyranny or an oligarchy. 2. Greece was in the process of the begginigs of political and social change at this point but Athens' development of theatre made it somewhat unique in how it was driving its political change. I would argue though that the most politically different polis at this point was Sparta and her constitution rather than Athens at this point however Dracos' reforms point to a changing political climate. 3. The existance and development of demoracy was still in the balance this point. The elites and aristocracy still held sway in the cities of Greece despite the changing soial climate and the new power of the polis coming to the fore. What was far more likely at this point was a devolvement from tyrannies to oligarchies and not the rise of democracy.
     
  14. A guest user
    #14 20:33, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    *1. What are the key elements to look for when trying to pinpoint the emergence of democracy in the ancient Greek world?* • The emergence of a group of people with same opinion who felt that they had the right to have a say in the way the community works. • The growth of a bigger community and development of the polis. More people coming together raised issues of how to run things, bring resources to the polis and defend themselves. • Trade and investment between the poleis all over the Mediterranean which led to individual and independent routes to wealth. *2. To what extent was Athens any different in the 7th century from other Greek poleis?* From the examples that were discussed in the lecture we can see that several other city states such as Dreros had a political system formed similar to that of Athens and so I suppose Athens wasn’t that different in the 7th century *3. To what extent do you think democracy was the likely outcome of the changing nature of Greek society at this time?* I don’t think that the Greeks set out to achieve democracy and in some ways society fell into it due to many different circumstances pushing towards the idea of a democratic political system. Democracy was not an inevitable consequence of particular events but a result of a changing society.
     
  15. A guest user
    #15 20:34, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    1) The expansion of trade and polis created a new emerging class of citizen. This new 'middle class' created a desire in wealthy citizens to have more of a role within the running of their polis. This feeling was also felt by the expanding hoplites who also felt they deserve to have a say in the running of the state. This tension between the oligarchs and the new class of citizen resulted slowly into the creation of democracy. 2) There was no particular difference between Athens and other poleis in the 7th century,there is evidence of forms of democratic action in other poleis such as the 'Great Rhetra' in Sparta, however Athens' dramatic festivals created an area for political debate. This brought political thought to the masses rather than just limited to the elite. 3) I don't think democracy was inevitable. It was resented by many of the upper class (but this is understandable as they lost their outright political standing), if the elite had made concessions to the wealthy merchants and hoplites, then democracy wouldn't of happened. Also democracy was an entirely new idea, it was untested and thus not inevitable.
     
  16. A guest user
    #16 21:53, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    /What are the key elements to look for when trying to pinpoint the emergence of democracy in the Ancient Greek world?/ I think the obvious answer would be, particularly when considering the emergence period, a degree of poor leadership, be it monarchical or tyrannical. Plato's claim that "democracy originates when the poor win, kill or exile their opponents, and give the rest equal civil rights and opportunities of office..." seems to support this, albeit his transition into democracy came from an oligarchical society. However, the ideas that were mentioned during the lecture (concept of politics, development of rational thinking, tragedy and drama, etc.) are far more interesting. I am inclined to agree more with the two formers, and less with the latter, as it seems that drama on the whole wouldn't have had the same sort of political impact as rational forms of thinking. Also, Peisistratus' role in the Pan Atheneia and the Great Dionysia, for me, act as two much of a counter argument to this point. /To what extent was Athens any different in the 7th century from other Greek poleis?/ As we mentioned in the lecture, there are examples of poleis' beating Athens to the punch as it were, with pre-Athenian democracies, or indeed, states with aspects of democracy, having been mentioned in a range of sources. Therefore, if we consider Athens' politics, during the 7th century, they shared differences with many states, due to having no evidence regarding a shift of power to the people at this time. However, I believe on the whole that Athens shared more traits with other poleis than less, when considering politics. /To what extent do you think democracy was the likely outcome of the changing nature of Greek society at this time?/ / /I always considered democracy as an inevitability in Greek Society, with the eventual transition shifting the power to the masses, and fulfilling the stereotype always thought of when considering post-6th century Athens. However, after the last lecture, I find the concept of Athens instead opting for short-term solutions to their issues, which eventually snowballed into democracy, as a far more logical alternative, with developments in many aspects of life resulting in power for the demos. Therefore, I don't consider it as a necessarily likely outcome, but one that would've satisfied an Athenian citizen nevertheless.
     
  17. A guest user
    #17 22:28, Wed 9 Oct 2013
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    1. An influx of free will perhaps as a result of an increase in trade which makes the working classes less reliant on their own polis to support their lifestyle and therefore they would have been held by fewer restrictions. An expanding population of people who have seen or experienced some form of free will would be a difficult thing for elites to contend with as it is not in human nature to give up free will without a fight and so the power struggle is likely to lean in favour of the masses. 2. In the 7th century I would not say there is anything significant about Athens which makes it stand out as one about to become a democracy anymore than any of the other poleis. 3. It was likely that more power was going to pass to the people but not that it would be such a permanent and influential structure. Democracy seems to have been a result of Athens' reaction to the many economic, geographical and military issues happening around and within their society and so I don't think it was an inevitable outcome.
     
  18. Freya Townley
    #18 10:56, Thu 10 Oct 2013
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    1. I believe that the rise of polis was a significant step towards democracy as it radically changed the dynamics of communal living, and it was likely that in these bigger communities which came together relatively quickly there would have been a need to think and discuss alternatives to the existing governing system which was likely to have proved less effective. I'm not sure about this, but this may have been a reason for the introduction of the position of archon. I also believe the trade networks and the development of coinage are key issues in this particular stage for democracy, as they helped develop a new class of people who were able to make a living for themselves without relying on the ruling class. In other historic examples this 'nouveau riche' class has often proved decisive in calling for more rights and representation for themselves, such as observed during the run-up to the French Revolution. 2. I am not confident in my knowledge of other poleis at the time, but I agree with what the majority of people are saying on the forum - the evidence I have seen suggests Athens, as a polis run by competing aristocrats, was not any more or less democratic than other poleis, though there may have been some democratic elements in play, as there were in Chios (as it had a "boule demosie" - "the people's council") and in Sparta (whose Great Rhetra suggested a system of government which attempted to limit power to any one individual). 3. Democracy was not an inevitable course of events, and in the 8th and 7th centuries, though there were significant steps taken which may have looked as though they were headed towards democracy, it is highly likely that there was no intention for what the Athenians would come to know of as "democracy" in any of its forms. Though there was what looks like an idea of representation for the people, this does not appear to be any of the poleis' driving force, for example, though Draco's Laws (according to Aristotle) gave more rights to people with enough money to bear arms, part of a new hoplite system, those who could not afford weapons or armour seem to be no better off.
     
  19. Louise Forsyth
    #19 12:50, Thu 10 Oct 2013 (edited 12:50, Thu 10 Oct 2013)
    Discussion of Lecture Key Questions
    1. Increase of trade and wealth which gradually began to shift the power stakes in society. 2. Athens wasn't the only polis to have laws at this time, so there are some similarities between Athens and other poleis. 3. It probably wasn't an inevitable outcome, because democracy didn't flourish in other city states where there were the same conditions as in Athens.
     

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