•To what extent does it matter that Athenian democracy was based on slavery?
•Was Athens’ democracy anything more than just another point on the
spectrum of political organisation in ancient Greece?
•What do you think the take-home message of plays showcasing women like
Ecclesiazusae would have been for their male audiences?
Democracy and Imperialism Discussion Forum 2013-4
Democracy and Imperialism Discussion Forum 2013-4
Discussion of Term 1 Lecture 9: Realities of Athenian democracy: Key Questions
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•To what extent does it matter that Athenian democracy was based on slavery? Slavery definitely seems to have been crucial to the successes of Athens' democracy (if you believe there were any at all that is), but I would hazard a guess that, although it's difficult to know what the average citizen would have thought, that it was a very natural part of life at the time, in a similar way to how alien the concept is to modern society now. Some scholars (Plutarch) provided an extremely romanticised view of slavery in Athens, while other evidence, such as the torture-evidence-lawcourts pieces, show a part of the negative side of slavery. Whether or not it 'mattered' though is hard to determine; even under what the Athenians considered an extremely equal system in democracy, slaves were never going to be all freed, which is why cases of note such as Nikomachos are so rare. If it mattered suggests that there may have been a different way to achieve the same result in democracy, but as slavery was such an accepted scheme, I doubt there was. •What do you think the take-home message of plays showcasing women like Ecclesiazusae would have been for their male audiences? Hopefully, if the comic playwright had done their job well, they would have enjoyed the experience. Sometimes, I think it's dangerous to over-analyse sources, particulary when the primary purpose of these plays were to entertain. In the same way that as students, we (or at least I) am not offended by shows such as the Inbetweeners or Fresh Meat, depsite possibly interpreting them as commentaries on young people. I understand that Aristophanes, for example, was well aware of the political system in Athens, and it is extremely likely that his commentaries would have been fairly accurate, so as to provide the biggest laughs, but it is possible to read too much into a source that was not meant to accurately document the history of Athens.0 likes
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1. I think it was very important to both the operation of ancient economies in general and the development of democratic Athens in particular. Cheap and plentiful labour provided the Athenian citizenry with the time needed to engage in the political system. But I think that slavery had a wide range in antiquity, I mean from being a house slave to a mine slave and everything in between, and also perhaps the difference between a state-owned and a private slave. 2. Yes. Unprecedented but yes.0 likes
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*•Was Athens’ democracy anything more than just another point on the spectrum of political organisation in ancient Greece?* Although Athens’ democracy was not the only democracy in ancient Greece it was the catalyst in the formation of some of these other democracies. Whilst some poleis* c*hanged to this method of government of their own accord, Athens forcibly implemented democracy in places that could potentially be threatening to them. As a result of this, democracy was expanding and evolving in ancient Greece due to Athens, therefore Athens should not be overlooked. * * *•What do you think the take-home message of plays showcasing women like Ecclesiazusae would have been for their male audience?* The message of plays presenting women with power like /Ecclesiazusae / would be that women’s views were idealistic and not practical and therefore men were better leaders. The women at the beginning of the play are frustrated that their voices are not being heard and they demand equality in all matters. However when these changes are put into place the new system of equality implemented by the women ultimately fails. This play essentially presents the contemporary view that women may have desired some form of power but that they could not to have influence over the government because their ideas were too simplistic. It highlights the unrealistic, naive ideals and expectations of women as they believe that an almost –communist style of government would be flawless. A male audience watching this play would agree with the fundamental message of the play that women have no place in government. The play heightens their sense of superiority by illustrating the comical consequences of giving women power.0 likes
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1. To what extent does it matter that Athenian democracy was based on slavery? When answerring this question it is first very important to realise that it is making the assumption that Athenian democracy was without a doubt based on slavery. This is another question in itself, but ultimately it is hard to deny that the exsistence of slavery within ancient Athens allowed democracy to develop and perhaps last a lot longer than it would have otherwise. This question furthermore has another issue in that modern audiences would find it a lot more difficult to deal with the concept of slavery, and the fact that Athenian democracy is often held up as the 'original' democracy makes the issue of slavery very uncomfortable to a modern audience; so perhaps for a modern audience it would matter that Athenian democracy was based on slavery, especially as it would 'tarnish' the idealised view of Athenian democracy which some hold. However, in context of the ancient Greek world that criticism of the use of slaves would have little impact. This is because pretty much every society had and used slaves in some kind of context. Because of this it is difficult to access whether Athenian democracy would have been able to have been a success without the use of slaves. The use of slaves would have been so much a part of everyday life that Athenian citizens may have been unable to imagine a world in which there were no slaves and because this would not have been an issue, it is only natural that they could then depend on slaves. Who knows, if slavery was something less common, then Athenian democracy may still have survived, with Athenian citizens finding other ways to complete the work which slaves carried out. But it is impossible to know this. So, it is clear that it did not matter that Athenian democracy was based on slavery because they were just using the resources available to them, at a time where opposition to slavery was almsot nonexistant.0 likes
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I think it does matter that Athenian democracy was based on slavery as it is not a true democracy if not everyone has rights. However, slaves, although still people, were technically classed as commodities in Greece rather than fellow citizens so under Athenain law it does make sense that the democratic rights did not apply to them. Slavery was important to the everyday functioning of Athens and without it democracy may not have worked as well as it did.0 likes
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*To what extent does it matter that Athenian democracy was based on slavery?* Looking at this question from the point of view of an Athenian, in terms of whether they would believe it mattered, is a somewhat difficult question to answer because it is hard to know how any of the ancient Greek regimes would have worked without slavery, as it was so ingrained into the growth and development of not only their political systems, but their states as a whole. It is important to recognise that democracy was not a solid, unchanging system and impacted the way the people thought and how they shaped their history therefore it is hard to understand what it would be like were one element taken out, because that could have affects on the chronology of the whole period - so would this have been something an average Athenian would have thought to question at all? *What do you think the take-home message of plays showcasing women like Ecclesiazusae would have been for their male audiences?* I agree with Tom that, as a comedy, it may be easy to over-analyse this source. However, I do also believe that the Ecclesiazusae in particular may show have been a commentary on the contemporary political issues in terms of a seeming decline in the value of democracy and the way Athens was receiving it towards the end of the fifth century. I think for the male audiences, as (as far as we know) the more politically inclined members of society, may have been a humerous idea of an alternative to democracy, and may have had the message that perhaps there was no alternative - even in the most desperate of situations, their current democracy is still superior. In terms of the representation of women in the play, I think Shani's point is interesting in that it could show that there was some female wish for power, or at least a male worry that there was. But the play almost allays fears of women reaching out for power because it presents an ultimate failure. However, as said before, Aristophanes was writing for humour so messages taken from the play should probably be taken with a pinch of salt as they may not have been taken seriously at the time.0 likes
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To what extent does it matter that Athenian democracy was based on slavery? ‘To what extend does it matter’ to whom, precisely? Certainly it did not appear to have concerned the ancient Athenians, or indeed ancient Greeks, as slavery was such an intrinsic part of their society. Therefore, it would appear that it is only we who appear to object to slavery being a part of Athenian democracy. Present day democracy is almost synonymous with freedom and the pinnacle of civilised society, and thus it is understandable that we might object that the predecessor of our own democratic system made use of slaves – an idea that present democracy finds abhorrent.0 likes
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1. I don't think it would have mattered to the Athenians themselves, as slavery simply just was, to them. Do we know of any Greek cities/political systems that operated without slavery? Slavery might come into the equation with the likes of Sparta, a they are constantly worried about a hoplite rising. Obviously, it is something we should take into account when analysing the democracy and so on. 2. I do believe it is just a spot on a spectrum for a political body that is constantly changing and shifting. Athens was democratic for some time but certain forces acting upon it soon made it shift to the more Imperial side. 3. I think a huge point of those plays was political satire. Aristophanes always seems a little ticked off with the political situation of Athens at the time, and I think plays such as Assembly Women, Lysistrata and so on, served to highlight this to the audience - sort of a "things are so bad this might as well be happening" sort of way.0 likes
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1) With a modern perspective it is easy to view the fact that because slaves were not included that it was not a true democracy and thus it did matter. However if you think today that foreign workers can not take part in democracy because they are not citizens of that country so too slaves were not allowed to vote due to their lack of citizenship. Yet it did matter because by using the base of slaves for democracy in Athens it became successful. Slaves were an extremely important part of the Athenian economy, the use of their labour in the silver mines allowed Athens to gain power, wealth and the ability to build an extensive empire. So the fact that the democracy was based on slavery did not matter but not in terms of whether it was a true democracy but in terms of how their labour was able to catapult Athens into the height of its power.0 likes
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1. To what extent does it matter that Athenian democracy was based on slavery? I think that slavery was crucial in the existence of Athenian democracy. Slaves played an inevitable part in the way in which society functions though you could argue that democracy needed active participation in order to flourish, but all in all having slaves was a natural way of living in ancient Athens and so they aided the way of workings of democracy. 2. Was Athens’ democracy anything more than just another point on the spectrum of political organisation in ancient Greece? Yes, when you look at 5th century democracy in context and move away from Athens, really there were many places in the Greek world that showed signs of have a somewhat democratic looking political system, such as Dreros.0 likes