Democracy and Imperialism Discussion Forum 2013-4 Questions and Goals for the Democracy and Imperialism Course

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1. Michael Scott Staff Executive Office

   #1 09:33, Thu 3 Oct 2013

   This topic is for every student to post at least *1 key question and/or goal that they want to find the answer to/achieve* during the course of this module.
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2. A guest user

   #2 15:43, Thu 3 Oct 2013

   Was the behaviour of Athens in the 5th century BC comparable to the foreign policy of America today (by imposing democracy on communities who did not want it)?
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3. Theodore Parker

   #3 17:57, Thu 3 Oct 2013

   In this post <> Bradley Waters wrote: > Was the behaviour of Athens in the 5th century BC comparable to the > foreign policy of America today (by imposing democracy on communities who > did not want it)? > > Is this maybe an over-simplification of Athenian foreign policy (although that would not necessarily reduce the parallels with Amercia)? Where does democracy begin? At what point can we call a government "democratic"?
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4. Gah-Kai Leung Staff Politics

   #4 18:48, Thu 3 Oct 2013

   In this post <> Theodore Parker wrote: > In this post <> Bradley Waters wrote: > > >> Was the behaviour of Athens in the 5th century BC comparable to the >> foreign policy of America today (by imposing democracy on communities who >> did not want it)? >> >> > Is this maybe an over-simplification of Athenian foreign policy (although > that would not necessarily reduce the parallels with Amercia)? > Where does democracy begin? At what point can we call a government > "democratic"? > > I would nuance Bradley's question by asking to what extent public involvement in C21 US foreign policy is comparable to public involvement in Ancient Greek foreign policy. Theodore's question is a huge one and lots of political theorists have tried to grapple with this through the centuries. There are various democracy indices (such as that provided by the Economist Intelligence Unit; seehttp://www.economist.com/node/12499352 ) that have also attempted to provide an appropriate metric of democracy, but we would need to look at their methodologies and discuss whether they contain hidden assumptions or biases. This suggests a question: to what extent can we compare contemporary understandings of democracy (as given by thinktanks or political philosophers) with ancient Greek understandings? A further question: there is an alleged paradox in democratic theory, which runs like this. Suppose I vote for A in an election, expecting A to be the winner. Instead, B is elected the majority winner. There is a contradiction here: A ought to be elected (because I think so); B ought to be elected (because the majority thinks so). Did the Greeks see this as a problem? How, if at all, did they try to resolve it?
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5. A guest user

   #5 19:16, Thu 3 Oct 2013

   In this post <> Matthew Leung wrote: > In this post <> Theodore Parker wrote: > > >> In this post <> Bradley Waters wrote: >> >> >>> Was the behaviour of Athens in the 5th century BC comparable to the >>> foreign policy of America today (by imposing democracy on communities who >>> did not want it)? >>> >>> >> Is this maybe an over-simplification of Athenian foreign policy >> (although that would not necessarily reduce the parallels with Amercia)? >> Where does democracy begin? At what point can we call a government >> "democratic"? >> >> > *I would nuance Bradley's question by asking to what extent public > involvement in C21 US foreign policy is comparable to public involvement in > Ancient Greek foreign policy.* > > Theodore's question is a huge one and lots of political theorists have > tried to grapple with this through the centuries. There are various > democracy indices (such as that provided by the Economist Intelligence Unit; > seehttp://www.economist.com/node/12499352 > ) that have also attempted to > provide an appropriate metric of democracy, but we would need to look at > their methodologies and discuss whether they contain hidden assumptions or > biases. This suggests a question: to what extent can we compare contemporary > understandings of democracy (as given by thinktanks or political > philosophers) with ancient Greek understandings? > > A further question: there is an alleged paradox in democratic theory, > which runs like this. Suppose I vote for A in an election, expecting A to be > the winner. Instead, B is elected the majority winner. There is a > contradiction here: A ought to be elected (because I think so); B ought to > be elected (because the majority thinks so). Did the Greeks see this as a > problem? How, if at all, did they try to resolve it? > > This is the point. At times, it does appear that the Athenian demos have unprecedented powers in being able to settle foreign affairs. Such is the case when the Athenian assembly voted to massacre the Mytilines in 428-7 BC, to a man, only to reverse the decision in the following days. Of course, America is more of a representative democracy and the voter cannot decide on such matters directly but only through the medium of those elected – who may or may not honour their electorial promises. Having said that the reformations Cleisthenes initiated heavily favour his family, the Alcmaeonid clan. The citty trittys was their seat of power and allowed the limited Pnyx (which could only fit 9000 in the 5th century BC) to fill up before a proper demographic make-up could occur by bringing in the citizens from the other regions of Attica. This is possibly why Perikles, an Alcmaeonid himself, was able to dictate foreign policy at the beginning of the Pelopponessian War seemingly unopposed. It was a far from perfect system. But with regards to imposing democracies on other poleis, Thucydides has recorded the practice innumerable times. Pseudo-Xenophon (3.10) offers his opinion on why the Athenians conduct their affairs in this manner . “Also in the following point the Athenians seem to me to act ill-advisedly: in cities embroiled in civil strife they take the side of the lower class. This they do deliberately; for if they preferred the upper class, they would prefer those who are contrary-minded to themselves. In no city is the superior element well disposed to the populace, but in each city it is the worst part which is well disposed to the populace. For like is well disposed to like. Accordingly the Athenians prefer those sympathetic to themselves.”
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6. Sean Gallagher

   #6 21:09, Thu 3 Oct 2013

   I have no specific question as yet, but my goal is to become confident in understanding and discussing democracy and imperialism in Athens/Greece in the Classical period. Sean
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7. Eliot Pallot

   #7 23:23, Thu 3 Oct 2013

   To what extend did Athenians and more generally Greeks who had democratic sympathies believe that democracy was a universal and inherent good vs. something that they and other Greeks were exclusively in a position to exploit because of their position as superior to barbarians.
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8. A guest user

   #8 07:41, Fri 4 Oct 2013

   In this post <> Eliot Pallot wrote: > To what extend did Athenians and more generally Greeks who had democratic > sympathies believe that democracy was a universal and inherent good vs. > something that they and other Greeks were exclusively in a position to > exploit because of their position as superior to barbarians. > > Great question Eliot. The problem I think here is that the majority of the literary texts from the ancient world are written by philosophers or aristocrats, both of which take a rather dim view of the political system. Plato likens it to mob rule and Thucydides' interpretation isn't that much better either. It's hard to know what the common man, or someone like Cleon, would have made of their democracy.
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9. Jo Lewis

   #9 13:10, Sat 5 Oct 2013

   So far I think my aim in this course is to establish in my mind, to what extent the democracy we observe in Athens was unique, and if so, how did it become to be such a global foundation for later democracies to build upon. What made it so much better or more advanced than the others?
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10. A guest user

    #10 13:43, Sat 5 Oct 2013

    I think my question would be: To what extent was Athenian democracy actually democratic by a modern definition, and can a society ever be truly democratic?
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11. Maciej Jaszczynski

    #11 13:11, Sun 6 Oct 2013

    My question is: Did democracy do more harm or more good to the Athenian polis in the V century?
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12. Jack Ingleby

    #12 15:56, Sun 6 Oct 2013

    I would like to understand whether the democratic structures, however democratic by modern standards they may have been, were used democratically or were they manipulated and used principally as a tool for the elite to exploit the demos but in doing so make them complicit in their own servitude?
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13. A guest user

    #13 16:05, Sun 6 Oct 2013

    The representatives within the council were all male citizens of Attica who were united by a similar lifestyle and outlook on life. They were also united by their elite status above women, slaves, and foreigners not entitled to Athenian citizenship. Therefore, to what extent did political factions exist within Athenian democracy when there was not as much diversity as there is today in modern democracy? The practice of ostracism implies that there must have been some conflict, but how similar were these oppositions to modern political parties and factions?
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14. Poppy Richards

    #14 17:25, Sun 6 Oct 2013

    My goal is simply to find out how democracy emerged as, today, the most widely accepted structure of government in a political body. Why did democracy flourish when other options fell aside?
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15. Thomas Jackson

    #15 21:39, Sun 6 Oct 2013

    My question is who would have been the most likely, based on existing conditions, to be the "originators" of democracy if Athens had not been?
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16. Joseph Thompson

    #16 10:32, Mon 7 Oct 2013

    I would like to find out whether external factors pushed democracy upon Athens, or whether it was a solely internal decision.
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17. William Carruthers-Andrews

    #17 10:36, Mon 7 Oct 2013

    Why are Democracy and Imperialism so closeley associated with one another? Is there something about democratic rule which necessitates imperialsit behaviour, or is it a by-product of an effective system of government achieving power and expansionist behaviour being expected of a powerful state.
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18. Freya Townley

    #18 11:26, Mon 7 Oct 2013

    My aim this year is to learn more about what sort of an impact Athenian democracy had on the day-to-day life of those living within Athens (citizen or otherwise) and what sort of impact this, and the "Empire", had on a changing Athenian cultural identity within this time period and for later generations.
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19. A guest user

    #19 15:55, Mon 7 Oct 2013

    I think my question will be something like: Do modern scholars interpret evidence on the subject of Democracy in Athens to fit with an idea that every aspect of Athenian society was somehow democractic in form?
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20. A guest user

    #20 16:15, Mon 7 Oct 2013

    My question for this year would be to what extent can we ever really understand how the evolving democracy of Athens truly impacted the day-to-day lives of the ordinary people, if at all? If indeed any insight can be gained, how accurate is this likely to be?
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